PIRATES v. NINJAS! Game Over!

[Thok]

/confirm and amen!

[Thok]

I wonder -- shall we
discuss setup? It might help
later. Stoofer games...

Yeah, I figure this game will be a bit of a mindfuck. I'm just not sure what the twist is yet.

vote Guardian

Haiku=ninja? Although it seems too obvious.

[Thok]

I think it's worthwhile to be aware of the possibility of set-up craziness. I don't think trying to deduce the weirdness now is a good thing.

I also don't think Guardian is scummy for bringing up the topic. So

unvote Guardian, vote Sir Tornado

.

[Thok]

The Iammars wagon (as well as Thesp's attempted trap) seems to be based off of an assumption that I don't think I'm ready to accept yet. (For a reference point, this assumption would have been valid in C&H, and not valid in Space Monkey.)

I'm keeping this comment vague for a reason.

[Thok]

This is a decent point, which was not at all what JordanA24 is saying. Note that it doesn't require a bazillion assumptions about the setup, just that there is a group of scum who are ninjas, and who are not comprised of pirates (and are otherwise unaware of what other roles might be out there before N1), which currently seem very, very reasonable to make.

You realize, of course, that I've hinted that I'm uncomfortable with making one of the assumptions you've suggested.

Also, the argument against Iammars' comment being a ploy requires that he deliberately makes a post to try to confuse us, but doesn't ponder the possibilities of the set-up in order to determine whether or not it's a good idea. That seems a bit convoluted and the analysis of "it's just a joke" is much more reasonable.

There's also at least a third explanation for Iammars' comment, although I believe Thesp realizes that.

[Thok]

Yes, which I've alluded to - I'm awaiting Iammars's pirate/non-pirate claim first. It's also partially why I don't think you should be allowed anywhere near the endgame. (I admit it's early to commit to this line of thought.)

We've had this sort of discussion in SoaP mafia also. You had a similar reaction to my comments there. I was town in that game.

[Thok]

No, it does NOT support your point. In fact, twito was outed PRECISELY because he effectively claimed scum. The space monkeys knew they were the scum, but they didn't know that the town thought that they were scum too. This led to the scenario where twito outed himself.

Huh? Twito was lynched in SM because I investigated him as a cop. And the Space Monkey role PM specifically told the scum the basic idea of the set up (and Stoofer later sent the Space Monkey's the generic Gorilla PM.)

I'm not happy at all with TSQ right now.

unvote, vote TSQ

[Thok]

I'm willing to accept that you completely misremembered the game, but I just really dislike your jump on Iammars and I feel like your few posts have been very opportunistic.

[Thok]

Clarify by way of double post: that last one was in response to TSQ, not erg0

[Thok]

Wow. That was a fun overreaction to my posts. The attempt to make it look like I was accusing you of lurking thing is particular a massive reach: if I actually cared about lurking right now there are other people I could go after (including at least one person who hasn't posted yet.)

I didn't actually give a reason for voting you in my original post, I simply said "I'm not happy with you." (My paragraph about your interpretation of SM was not really related to my vote.) I'm not "giving a completely new explanation" for my vote, since I never explained my vote in the first place.

And yes, I think pressuring Iammars is opportunistic. It's based on a fairly weak to nonexistent tell.

[Thok]

So your response to me proving everything you said is wrong is "Wow youre over reacting"

Um, I don't think you've proved anything I've said is wrong.

[Thok]

I am also wary of Thok, and while I understand the need for subtlety in some instances, I'm quite baffled as to what this "3rd option" about Iammars might be.

Are you suspicious of Thesp, who has basically taken the same position with respect to this option as I have?

[Thok]

Are you suspicious of Thesp, who has basically taken the same position with respect to this option as I have?

Not very, and I find that to be something of a misclassification.

You brought (at least explicitly) this 3rd point up first, and to my understanding are using it to support your suspicion of the Iammars wagon.

I am not using that as a way to support suspicion of the Iammars wagon. Given that you claim to have no idea what it is, I can't see how you can reasonably claim I'm using that as a way to attack people. Moreover, the only person I've discussed this with is Thesp and you, and I haven't been attacking either of you.

[Thok]

I thought you cited "mysterious 3rd point" as one of your reasons for being wary of the Iammars wagon. No?

That is an extremely easy way I can reasonably claim that you are using it as a way to attack

people

ideas.

Using a mysterious, unclarified, secret point to support your stance was precisely the reason I found you suspicious. You talk about something you are keeping purposefully vague, you talk about a 3rd unmentioned possibility, you talk about assumptions that you are unwilling to make -- assumptions that you are even unwilling to disclose what they are -- and use that as a basis for your stance.

Yeah, I find that suspicious.

Gee, maybe I don't want to mention some of the possibilities because I think it helps scum to mention them. If I had mentioned my third possibility and Iammars was scum, he might have tried to use that as a way to help himself.

For the record, Iammars can't use that possibility now. Moreover, the fact that certain people can't even seem to phantom what that possibility is tells me something about their roles.
-------------

@TSQ-you are criticizing Claus for responding to a question that you claim only has one answer. If that's truly the case, then why would Thesp bother to ask the question?

------------
For the record, I prefer a TSQ or Guardian wagon to a Thesp wagon. Mostly this is a matter of tone, as I think Thesp is being stubborn and dense but townish, while I feel Guardian is being manipulative/trying to pick too much at fine details and I feel TSQ is leaching onto this wagon. Guardian's willingness to hint at maybe supporting a Thespwagon is also scummy.

[Thok]

1) Thok, I was clearly responding to gorrad, who I had FOSed in my previous post, and not clause. Are you reading my posts at all?

2) I'm leaching off of a day 1 page 9 pressure wagon which is not even halfway to lynch? Thats a good one, thok.

1. OK, so you were attacking Gorrad and not Claus. That doesn't actually change the point of my comment. Doesn't the fact that Thesp asked a questions which (according to you) had essentially one answer strike you as weird? I don't see why you haven't thought about this issue (and it's clear to me that you haven't.)

2. I'm sorry. Should I have let the wagon gain five more people and then started attacking you? You were clearly trying to put pressure/encourage a lynch on what was the fastest developing wagon at the time, for reasons that are mediocre at best. I feel like you're putting yourself in a position where you can press for an easy lynch, while allowing yourself to allow other people to take the blame for the wagon if it goes wrong.

[Thok]

Thok. Bandwagons are good d1. I take plenty of credit for this bandwagon. Does that make you feel better?

No, because you were still on the wagon for mediocre at best reasons.

Wagons are good day 1. But that doesn't mean all day 1 wagons are equally valid.

[Thok]

I just read the last page. And then Thesp in isolation. And then Gorrad in isolation. And then Erg0's recent posts, in isolation. And then Thok and Thesp arguing.

I'm too tired to articulate my thoughts beyond saying:

I think Thesp and Thok may be scum together. Yes, I said it. Thesp. And Thok.

I'd like to hear your reasons for this. In particular, if you drop a mess of garbage as your argument, I will be moving my vote to you. I just spent 4 months dealing with scumGuardian in Open 19, and I'm going to have little tolerance for that sort of behavior here.

[Thok]

Apologies for not posting here for a few pages. Got hit by real life yesterday.

Skruffs apparently doesn't respect my scum-hunting skills.



That said, I don't see why anybody's bothering to attack Skruffs over that comment.

If we want to use confirmation posts as scumtells, why hasn't anyone brought up mbf's post where he said he would enjoy playing with mbl?

The same could be said about TSQ who suggested lynching DGB pregame...

Both of these are dangerous lines of thought with multiple killing groups around. It's possibly an argument for TSQ/MBF not being in one killing group (ignoring WIFOM issues), but says nothing about them being in the other killing group.

Still happy with my vote. I can see why people are voting Thesp, but I think of Guardian/TSQ/Thesp he's by far the most likely to be town. I think as scum he'd be more careful about overreaching on the Iammars wagon.

[Thok]

Thesp was pushing too hard, and too seriously, a much too silly bandwagon. And then later he begins to cheer both bandwagons. Thus the vote.

I believe this means that Thesp was fairly honest about believing in those wagons, which seems like a protown point of view to me.

I don't see why people are going after Thesp and not Guardian/TSQ, who were equally bad in pushing a silly wagon and IMHO did less in trying to analyze it/justify their reasons.

I'll also point out that TSQ/Guardian can't be pirate/ninja town, given their reactions to the secret discussion, and both are a bit too eager initially to accept the automatic pirate/ninja=scum theories.

Also, does anybody actually feel TSQ's reaction to my vote on him was a protown reaction? He fairly clearly tried to frame my vote in convoluted ways in an attempt to discredit it.

[Thok]

Can't be? A bit strong at this point I think. Maybe they don't want to give anything away that doesn't need to be discussed at this point. Just completely dismissing possibilities seems like a bad idea, especially in a Stoofer game.

I find it hard to read various comments TSQ or Guardian have made as "not trying to give stuff away that didn't need to be discussed". They haven't simply ignored the issue, but they've both actively made comments that showed they weren't even pondering that possibility. There exist other people who could potentially be pirate town or ninja town. TSQ and Guardian can't be that, not unless you want to credit them with being better actors than I think they are.

[Thok]

Now, should we accept that this is the definitive scenario? No. We dont know. Any of them COULD be a vigilante. And most importantly, we dont NEED to know on day one. That having been said though, I dont find people acting on these ideas as the most probable scenario remotely scummy. So of people who are "a bit too eager initially to accept the automatic pirate/ninja=scum theories." You can add my name too. Oh look at my shiny Occam's Razor. It glows in the light.

There's a difference between what you've said and what TSQ said (Guardian is closer to you than TSQ). You've made comments of the form "X is the most likely theory because of Ockham's razor". TSQ made a comment that completely ruled out a possible alternative theory (his comments about Iammars' possible responses to Thesp's question in particular. TSQ completely ruled out even the possibility of Iammars being pirate town.)

[Thok]

2. Thesp is pushing massclaiming. I cannot see any advantage to this that outweighs the disadvantage of having our most potent powerroles picked off.

Thesp, as far as I can tell, has never pushed mass claim. Reading his comments, he has considered forcing everybody to claim pirate/ninja/other. There's a massive difference between that and mass claim. I dare you to find a post where Thesp wanted people to out power roles.

[Thok]

Fritz brought me back cause I got a lightsaber and I plan to use it in his name. I mean, how often do you get your own pocket Jedi?

Why didn't you reread the game before deciding to vig somebody (assuming the vigging is real)? It feels like you were just trying to follow towns wishes and kill the person with the largest wagon on them, rather than decide who actually needed to be killed?

[Thok]

99% the vig was just a ruse to try and rat out some scum - thus the "answer this quick" after the post. Also the mod has already done a votecount since the "daykill", so it is almost certainly fake.

That said, I wouldn't be sad if the Vig were real - although I think dayvigs are better spent on severe cases of lurkititis.

Even if the vig is fake, my comment still stands. I want to know why MBL would choose to fake vig the leading bandwagon, as opposed to actually reading the game and figuring out who he felt needed to die.

Now can we run up TSQ? Thesp's reaction to the MBL ressurection looks like a frustrated townie and I don't have any interested in voting him. I also hate TSQ's "I find Twomz scummy for voting the person I'm currently voting" comment.

[Thok]

now especially, I think Thesp owes the town to explain this BS Gorrad - Mars link he claimed to see so clearly earlier

If I ask you to try to explain the (IMHO) BS Thesp-Thok link you suggested earlier, would try to explain that? Or have you decided to discard that?

[Thok]

Furthermore, thok, that wasn't at all why I said he was suspicious to me. I said that he was lurking in plain sight. Many of his posts have a "Jeez I'm sorry for not posting content, this game is too fast...Don't look over here for content, thanks." Theme to them. For him to then come in and vote the person with the most votes without any original logic at all to me screams of opportunism. What does it say to you? What does the fact that he voted the person that I was voting have to do with anything? Are we not allowed to be wrong about the person we were voting, especially on day one? You're really stretching to find me suspicious.

Have you played with Twomz at all before?

I feel like if you were actually serious about your Twomz comment, you might have FOSed or voted him, or at least expressed some discomfort with your Gorrad vote. Instead you threw some trash at Twomz and patiently kept your vote on Gorrad.

Moreover, there are others doing the "not posting content thing" as well; see K-scope for example.

[Thok]

typo -> *I'd try.

I'd ask why you wanted me to maybe, but unless I thought you had no basis for asking, I'd try, like I said.

The two situations are fairly similar and you're involved to some extent in both of them. Asking the question gives town a chance to play compare and contrast.

[Thok]

EBWDP: Also, I think you're underestimating how much Thesp has discussed his thoughts about Iammars and Gorrad. If Thesp thought Iammars was scum, given what Thesp said it's not hard to come up with plausible reasons why he thought Gorrad was a partner with Iammars. It's a consistent world-view, but one that depended on what seemed to me to be false hypotheses.

(This is cryptic, but I think Guardian wants to hear what Thesp has to say, not what I think Thesp has to say.)

[Thok]

First of all, answer my questions. They were not rhetorical.

Half of them were covered by "Have you played a game with Twomz at all?" The rest were covered by my "Shouldn't you express some sort of concern about the fact that the person you find him suspiciously voting is the person you were currently voting?"

Second, no, I have not. Nor have I ever read any games of his. If you want to point me to a couple that will illustrate whatever kind of point you're going for, I'd be happy to read them.

Twomz has done this already.

Third, wait...In order to be suspicious of someone...I can't be potentially happy with a vote I already have? Meaning I cant be suspicious of two people at once? That makes no sense, thok. That would mean several things which are just patently untrue in a game of mafia are true. Let me list them: Distancing doesn't exist, Wifom doesn't exist, there is no such thing as multiple scum groups, we are absolutely certain about the people we find suspicious, and therefore when one of them votes for another person we find suspicious, it means that they cant be scum together. As you can see, you're being more than a little ridiculous.

I would believe this if you actually made any sort of indication that you are concerned about multiple scum groups, WIFOM, or distancing. Making a bunch of post-facto generic theory comments doesn't excuse you behavior at the time.

Natural reactions for most people to seeing scummy behavior is
1. To press it further at the expense of previous suspicions because you feel this is a better lead.
2. Let it go on the back burner and keep up with your current suspicions.
You did neither. This strikes me as very weird.

Lastly, I would say that I was happy with my vote, so there was no reason to move it. I was just tangentially suspicious of twomz as well. My use of FoSes is very sporadic, and unplanned. Sometimes I remember to use them, sometimes I don't. This is representative of the fact that I don't think FoSes are a big deal. When I see somethign suspicious, I post that it is so. I see a FoS as basically the same thing as saying "I find X suspicious" so I don't know why lacking the actual textual FoS is a big deal. The post is furthering the same point.

This seems like a lot of posting to not actually say much. You seem to think that by throwing lots of text at my comments will swallow my arguments and make them irrelevant.
------------------

But fine, let's do analysis of what you've done. Throwing out posts that I feel don't actually add anything

1. Jumped on the stupid Iammars wagon, and given an FOS on Jordan that you apparently have had no desire to follow up on, because the only time you've mentioned it again is as a defense for why you weren't just following people.

2. A fairly reasonable comment about Kison. Actually, on a reread Kison seems a bit scummy for his push on Gorrad (and if Iammars turns up scum then Kison's a decent bet for an Iammars partner [and likely isn't scum with TSQ], as he was consistently trying to move people from Iammars to Gorrad when there was pressure on both.)

FOS Kison

.

3. Made a completely irrelevant and wrong comment about Space Monkeys . (Not scummy, but included for completeness.)

4. A masssive overreaction and twisting of my attack on you. This feels like you trying to throw out text on the theory that if you have more text than me people will think you win the argument.

5. Using Thesp as an excuse to jump onto Gorrad (while using an argument that I don't believe was what Thesp was looking at when he he was pushing Gorrad, and then claiming it was what Thesp was getting at.) Moreover, as I pointed out, the argument you used to go after Gorrad should also have lead to you thinking about Thesp's actions, and you didn't seem to do that at all.

6. You start doing the whole "I am bandwagoning to pressure people, not to lynch them" thing and the whole "I can't be following other people's leads if the wagon is only halfway to lynch" which just doesn't make sense.

7. A fairly wishy-washy comment in post 248 about the possibility of Thesp-Thok. Paraphrased it goes "Well, I'll suggest they are scum together without a justification, but I'll also deny looking for partners so Guardian gets blamed for this rather than me in case one of them gets lynched and comes up town."

8. Random DGB nonsense. (Included for completeness)

9. FOS of Guardian, followed by what appears to be a reasonable comment about him and Flameaxe. This is later retracted when you claim it's not relevant.

10. A small theory comment of the form "I'm trying to get reactions and that's what protown players do." Plus more comments of the form "I'm wagonning, not trying to lynch," which feel like theory BS to try and defend yourself with. Basically saying you're only trying to pressure somebody gives you a backdoor way to get off a wagon without be accused of trying to lynch a protown player.

11. Stuff with Twomz I've just discussed.

[Thok]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Have you played with

Twomz

Kscope at all before?

Oh, figured.[/quote]

Actually I have. But I was curious why TSQ was putting pressure on a Twomz for not posting much and ignoring all of the other people who werem't posting much. You were a convenient example.

Kison's vote on Rosso Carne makes me feel a bit better on him; I was considering the possibility of a Iammars/Kison/RC lurker scum group.

unvote TSQ, FOS TSQ, vote Rosso Carne

[Thok]

I'll contribute as possible; meanwhile I still encourage Thesp votes. Note how both masons are voting Thesp. Note how I am voting Thesp. Go and do likewise.

How is this an argument at all? I could easily go "I'm not voting Thesp and I have a good reputation for finding scum. Neither of MBL/Fritz are voting Thesp and both are fairly confirmed. Therefore Thesp is a bad play."

Why are you postponing describing the Thesp-Thok you claimed to saw before?

[Thok]

This makes mild sense in that limited context, but even then, it's extremely rare for scum to operate this way. Why would they? There's

zero

compelling reason to.

Also there are multiple occasions where I have done this whole being vague about stuff as town (Kingmaker 1 and Space Monkey Mafia are the big examples, and Chrono Trigger also qualifies to a lesser extent.)
---------------

As for me defending Thesp, yes I have been. I've been pretty blatant about it. I feel pretty comfortable in Thesp being town, having seen his own behavior and how town has reacted to various things. I've explained that Thesp feels like a person who was actually trying to hunt for scum, and that his behavior with respect to Iammars and Gorrad seemed townlike.

Just because somebody runs up a protown player doesn't make them scum; the townie in question may have acted in a scummy manner. You need to try to analyze the method and reason of why people ran up who they did. If you read my comments when I defend Thesp, I've made it clear that Thesp had a consistent world view in terms of who he was pressuring (if you actually thought the pirate thing with Iammars was a scum tell, the rest of Thesp's play fits in with that), and that Thesp was sticking his neck out in order to get Iammars/Gorrad lynched to an extent that others weren't.

---------------
Not fond of Guardian essentially retconning that his "masons and me are voting for Thesp, so you should do so also" is a trap. If it actually was, why didn't he react immediately in 584? Moreover, his comparison of my behavior to Gorrad's behavior is bizarre as an argument for me being scum.

Blah, Guardian feels like he's trying to make stuff up, which gives me a big Open 19 vibe which means he needs to be lynched ASAP.

unvote Rosso Carne, vote Guardian

.

[Thok]

Blah, Guardian feels like he's trying to make stuff up, which gives me a big Open 19 vibe which means he needs to be lynched ASAP.

I find it hard to believe you think that. The reasoned arguments here are a FAR cry from the bullshit I was espousing in 19. For everyone's refernce: In 19 I was scum and, for example, I pursued one player for 5+ game days, and one of my main arguments against him was

that he responded to posts

. Comparing that to my arguments here is absurd.

You've attacked people for confirming like a pirate and copying your haikus, among other things. There's also the "trap" you claimed to have set.

These are reasoned argument?

[Thok]

Iammars, do you believe everybody in this game has been classified by Stoofer as either a pirate or a ninja? If so, why?

[Thok]

I hate the Iammars lynch at the moment. Guardian's attack on him is full of junk. For example, he questions whether Stoofer prodded Iammars, even though it's a matter of public record that Mr Stoofer prodded a bunch of people in post 571, including Iammars. If you look at Iammars posts on MS between when he was prodded by Stoofer and when he posted in the game, there are two. One of those is a day scene for a game where Iammars had made an "I'm processing night scene stuff" post before he was prodded in this game.

Also, the whole not sure about being a pirate thing only works as a scum tell if you think either Iammars is lying about it (in which case what's the benefit for Iammars to say that), or if you think he's nonpirate and nonninja-if he was either pirate or ninja scum, he would know for a fact whether or not he was a pirate.

Basically, Guardians case on Iammars is for
1. Confirming like a pirate
2. Not unvoting his random vote
3. Lurking
4. OMGUS
5. The whole not being sure he is a pirate thing
6. Expressing his thoughts on everybody in the game

Of these, only 3/4 could possibly be seen as scum tells, and they could equally well be taken as simply "not playing well" tells. 5, in particular, has a decent chance not to be a scum tell.

I'll repeat, Guardian declared somebody scummy for expressing his thoughts on everybody in the game. This can't possibly be any more sensible than the "Attacking somebody for responding to posts".

Can we lynch Guardian yet? He's obviously scum trying to push attacks with really weak reasons attached to rhetorical flourishes to not make them appear pathetic, and getting rid of him would help town a ton since we wouldn't have to listen to him any more.

[Thok]

I reject completely that my reasons for attacks are weak, and I am completely baffled by your not wanting to listen to me. You haven't responded to my explaining how every single (3) line of argument of mine that you questioned as being reasoned argument is in fact valid, and I've been proactive in making 2 of the most significant wagons of the game happen. There have been about 4. You're saying you'd rather I just lurked, and we had a Gorrad wagon and a Kscope wagon? Bullshit.

You've put up some BS psychological arguments that ignore the possibility of people joking, which a lot of words to make them look better then they actually are. I already poked holes in some of your arguments before and in your recent comment I poked holes in your comments about whether Stoofer prodded Iammars and your analysis of Iammars. I don't neeed to repeat myself every single post.

Also, at some point if I say too much, half of the town is going to zone out.

There's also a false dilemna here: it's possible for scum to be active and for town to lurk. I'm not attacking you for being vocal, but for being vocal in a way that seems scummy and pressing bandwagons with bad reasons on people I believe to be protown. I never liked either of the Iammars or the Thesp wagon; presenting them to me as defenses for your behavior is pointless.

You want to get rid of one of the most vocal proactive townies. Why, Thok? I would not be surpised if I was dead after this coming night for the cases I'm making -- and you want to lynch me for them? Ridiculous.

I want to get rid of one of the people I feel is most like very vocal scum. Plain and simple.

I'll add another argument: Why haven't you OMGUSed me yet? You've sort of kind of did it with the vague Thesp-Thok comments, but have never really wholesale bought into it. You are one of the more OMGUSy players on the site and if you were town I'd feel you'd be more willing to counterattack me than you appear to be here. (My answer: you don't want to go head to head with me if you are scum, because you know from experience that you'll get lynched, and you don't necessarily trust your scum partners once you go down.)

[Thok]

What am I missing, Thok?

Assuming you aren't partners with Guardian, and you honestly believe what you are saying, you're missing the fact that Guardian is Guardian and not Mafiabot X352. Given his style of play, he's never going to lurk and given his style of play he's always going to want to exert some control over town.

You're also assuming that scum focus on hunting scum during the day. Really they just want any lynch they can get. After all scum can use night to remove the opposing scum groups from the game.

[Thok]

Thok's right about Guardian's playstyle. Accursed Ork massclaim...

Woah woah, it's enough that Thok is proposing (and heck maybe even believing) this. How is my playstyle significantly different here:

The point about your play style (which I think Gorrad mangled by his comment), was that you aren't the type to sit back and not participate. I don't consider your massive amount of participation by itself a scum tell; I consider the fact that you specifically keep running up people that strike me as townish and that you use bad reasons to do so scummy. The context was that cicero was wondering why any scum would behave the way you were doing; my point was that I'd expect you to be aggressive independent of your alignment, so that cicero's comment about scum wouldn't necessarily be applicable to you.

BTW Thok, I'm not overtly attacking you because I think you can out-argue me as you scum me town, just as well as you can out argue me as me town you scum. I find you very suspicious for this attack on me, especially since you are picking out selective points that help you and others you don't, but there isn't much concrete to point to, and generally things result badly if I just say "I find X very suspicious. Why? OMGUS."

Oh come on. When has "I'm afraid things will go badly for me" ever kept you from OMGUSing in the past? I could see you holding back if you ever found me town, but you've repeated said that you find things I've said scummy, but you apparently don't want to try to call me out or get me lynched.

Go find a real scumbag, wtf.

I have found a real scumbag, kthx die.

The one thing your attacks are encouraging is me posting less. For all you can say about you not attacking me for being active, and how I need to be active, and whatever whatever, its a choice, a choice you are discouraging. THis same exact thing happaned to me in Big Love Mafia, and I stopped posting and got replaced because of it. Not a signle one of your points against me is not punishing me for being vocal. Not a asignle one.

Have I ever said "Guardian is scummy for posting a lot?" I think I've specifically said that I'm attacking you for the contents of your posts and not for the sheer quantity. Don't try to use me as an excuse to hide in the background near deadline.

[Thok]

The context was that cicero was wondering why any scum would behave the way you were doing; my point was that I'd expect you to be aggressive independent of your alignment, so that cicero's comment about scum wouldn't necessarily be applicable to you.

I can see Guardian scum being very aggressive. Please don't misrepresent me if you can help it.

How is this possibly a misrepresentation? Your comment about seeing Guardian acting that way as scum was made after my comment about Guardian, and was a reaction to the comment I made about Guardian.

[Thok]

My point - whether Guardian is scum or whether he is town I think he believes his case against Iammars.

And my point was that because Guardian is always aggressive, as scum he'd be willing to push cases simply to push cases, independent of any other factors, including whether or not he believed the case and that you should not assume Guardian believes his case just because he's pushing it strongly.

Now I can see why you thought my comment was a misrepresentation; you thought I said "Cicero didn't realize Guardian could be aggressive", when it's more like "Cicero didn't realize that Guardian's aggression would lead him to act in ways that differ from what Cicero posits as the typical actions of aggressive scum".

[Thok]

Responding to 692

Huh? I'm claiming that you're an aggressive player as either town or scum. There's no reason that aggression has to be expressed the same way as town or scum.

As for your comment that you completely believe your case on Iammars, obviously you'd say that independent of your alignment.

----------------
From 693

(Snipping a bunch of stuff that can be summarized as "Nuh-uh", since my response would basically be repeating myself and going "Yeh-huh!" [well except the Ork thing which can't be verified since not a matter of public record])

No matter how much you say otherwise, I am being punished for being vocal; if I say enough things, you're going to find something or another you can find scummy, especially if I say what is on my mind, because my thoughts don't always make sense.

Again this makes me think we should get a lurker. I (wooh look, diverting attention to the biggest wagon) am beginning to appreciate the wagon on Kscope. I think Iammars is better, but heck, Kscope has a better shot at being scum than me, and his play right now would be GREAT play as scum in the Thok scumhunting world.

Don't be a nail that sticks our and you won't get hammered down.

Why should we go after KScope rather than Rosso Carne or Sir Tornado, both of whom are worse lurkers than KScope?

[Thok]

The Fonz, who's the play?

[Thok]

Thok -- I am "making stuff up." I've responded in detail to everything he brought up as "me making stuff up", he hasn't replied, and his vote is still on me.

Actually, there's at least two arguments I've complained about that you haven't discussed (your comment asking about whether or not Stoofer actually prodded Iammars, when it's a matter of public record that Iammars was prodded, and my analysis of what Iammars' comment about not knowing what Stoofer thinks of his role actually means.)

Also, you're turning a lot of the conversation between us into a "he said, she said". Your argument defending your the haiku and confirming like a pirate arguments ultimately boil down to "They are good arguments because I say they are good arguments." (This is most blatant with the confirming like a pirate argument; no matter how much you repeat it, there's no particular reason to believe that Iammars wasn't simply making a joke. The haiku arguments are barely better than this.)

Also, I'm partially voting you still because I don't really think your response to my attacks on you match my protown Guardian meta. In particular, you seem intent on slandering my scum hunting abilities, which seems to imply that you think I'm hunting scum and hence town. (Yes, there are multiple scum groups, but you seem more interested on trying to lynch lurkers then on considering the possibility that somebody attacking you is scum.)

[Thok]

O.O? Really? I missed that, where did you bringit up? Where did Stoofer??

I brought this up in post 657, which mentioned Stoofer's prod of Iammars in post 571 and all of Iammars posting on MS between the prod and his posting in this game.

(This also had my analysis of Iammars "I'm not sure if I'm a pirate" comment.)

You responded to 657 immediately in 659.

This is most blatant with the confirming like a pirate argument; no matter how much you repeat it, there's no particular reason to believe that Iammars wasn't simply making a joke.

I don't think there is such thing as simply making a joke in mafia. I remember someone has a title IT'S A JOKE (emptyger?) to prove that.

Actually, that was just a joke. EmpTyger's done at least one April Fool's joke as town. (The original was in Les Mis min (Mini 167), where he was scum. The second was done in Princess Bride (Mini 303), when EmpTyger was town. The third was done in C&H, when he was scum. So, EmpTyger's willing to play this joke as either alignment.)

Also, I'm partially voting you still because I don't really think your response to my attacks on you match my protown Guardian meta. In particular, you seem intent on slandering my scum hunting abilities, which seems to imply that you think I'm hunting scum and hence town.

wtf? I've said how I find you suspicious but can't put my finger on why. mostly it is BECAUSE of your slanderously bad scumhunting here -- I know Thok to be better than this.

If you were town, you'd try harder than this to figure out "why you find me scummy." As scum, you can toss softball scum accusations and "Thok is playing badly accusations" at me and simply deflect your lynch long enough so that somebody not in your scum group will get lynched.

(Yes, there are multiple scum groups, but you seem more interested on trying to lynch lurkers then on considering the possibility that somebody attacking you is scum.)

why would I be more likely to do this as scum than town?

Because as scum, you know the people on you actually have valid reasons to see you hang, and that actually confronting them directly will probably get you lynched. It's much easier for you to just convince a bunch of people to go after lurkers.

[Thok]

If I recall correctly, and correct me if I'm wrong because I have trouble keeping this game straight, you said that wikipedia couldn't help you decide if your role was pirate/ninja/whatever. It seems to me that something like that would be pretty obvious. Why don't you tell me what your flavor is so I can look it up, if it's so difficult for you to define yourself?

Why are you fishing for Iammars' flavor?

[Thok]

Huh. Some of KScope's and Guardian's play makes me wonder if they are from the same scum group. (Guardian was trying to push Iammars over KScope until he started getting run up, and KScope's need to justify his vote on Guardian by "Guardian doesn't have a problem with this", in a situation where that vote doesn't really need to have a justification.)

[Thok]

And what do you mean by "Thok will probably hammer me"? You don't even have any votes on you at the moment.

Pretty sure TSQ means hammer as in "attack unrelentlessly", as opposed to but the final vote on.

I think, as a change of pace, I'll let other people react to TSQ's post without commenting on it.

[Thok]

I really don't see why people think Guardian is more likely to be scum (especially after his genuine-looking tantrum), and I don't think he should be lynched today.

If you spend any time reading Open 19, you wouldn't consider Guardian's tantrum a good argument argument for him being town.

[Thok]

I'm Samwise Gamgee. I am a tracker. I think me being more confirmed is more important than MBL having a shroud of mystery -- I happened to target him N1, and he didn't target anyone for vig-ing.

MBL, can you confirm?

You realize this is a mostly useless claim in terms of verification purposes.

I'd like to hear the flavor reasons for Samwise Gamgee being a tracker. Unlike most of the other characters we've seen claimed, there doesn't seem that strong a connection between the role name and the function.

[Thok]

Hey Claus!! Thnx!

unvote

I can see Samwise Gangee being a tracker (for those that stated uncertainty about this role, he's a character from LOTR, tracker makes sense).

I know who Samwise Gangee is. That's not my issue with the claim. My issue (among other things) is that Sam doesn't really do much "tracking" in LOTR and Guardian's description for why he is a tracker suggests a hider flavor (and the hider flavor would fit better with other characters in the book).

[Thok]

Sauron would fit so much more. Discuss.

That's a straw man. There exist better tracker flavor characters in LOTR (Bilbo, for example matches the suggested flavor much better than Sam) without having to bring up evil characters.

[Thok]

Translation: If I were making this up, I'd have made it up better.

But, I am not making it up, my role is not Aragorn, or some other LOTR character. It is Sam. And I am a tracker. And that is that.

If you are scum, you could have been given Sam as a safe name to work with, and then tried to fit a role to that name. And I know you have a tendency when run up as scum early game to claim an investigative role, and in this game from what we've seen so far tracker would be a safer claim for you than any sort of cop.

[Thok]

Where does it say Scum got safe claims?

Where does it say Scum didn't get safe claims?

[Thok]

Blah. It looks like Guardian isn't going to be today's lynch, even though there's no reason to trust his claim.

unvote, vote Rosso Carne

I think my repeated disapproval of a Thesp wagon should be clear. He hasn't had any of the sort of kind of wishy-washiness that I see in Guardian/TSQ in terms of choosing their targets (take look at Guardian/TSQ's posts and you'll see a bunch of "Eh, I could see X as scum" comments that never get followed up on unless X is actually being wagonned; this suggests that Thesp actually has standards for his bandwagons while Guardian/TSQ are scum trying to get whatever wagon they can take.

I could see running up TSQ or Xtoxm as an alternative to Rosso Carne (the former would probably be in a distinct scum group from hypoGuardian scum, the latter has a chance to be hypoGuardian scum partner.)

[Thok]

TSQ-here's what I've seen that I would consider "wishy-washy"

Post 245, when there's a big Thesp/Guardian argument going on, with people generally being more suspicious of Thesp than Guardian.

I too noted that, though I am not sure what my read on Thesp is. (leaning on agreeing with guardian, though.)

A couple posts lately, when Guardian tosses out Thesp-Thok scum possibility

I could see thesp thok, but not nearly as strongly as you are positing it. In addition, I think it's way too early to be looking for scumpairs. Lets just find one scum first, K? Then we can focus on their partners.

Post 543 when the KScope wagon starts rolling.

I do like votes on kscope myself, as well. I would caution however that SirT always seems to play this way on day one. Kscope as well, even, so never mind I don't know how I actually feel about that.

Twomz, the only person I have ever actually seen that meta work on was creampuffeater.

There's actually less of this in your posts than I expected, but it's still there to some extent. Actually going over this makes me feel a bit better about you.

[Thok]

Nothing of the sort: it merely suggests Thesp is more careful and covert than Guardian and TSQ. Scumbags are rarely this blatant and if they are, I doubt more than one scum are going to apply the same dangerous strategy this early in the game.

You do realize that the sort of thing I'm pointing out isn't "blatant" at all?

[Thok]

I find it interesting that eveyrone and their dog targetted MBL on N0.

I didn't, unfortunately.

Bad Xtoxm. If you are town, don't give out information like this without a good reason.

[Thok]

RFour votes in under three hours, including three consecutive posts switching to Rosso, from zero before, including at least two by seriously dodgy people, and with little reasoning beyond 'He's lurking' though, rings my scumdar. I see a very strong likelihood of following here, and I'm getting lynch of convenience vibes too.

It's not just "his lurking", it's also that his last two votes seem really weird. He jumped on the KScope wagon for no reason, and given that was essentially a pure lurker wagon, Rosso's vote seems incredibly hypocritical.

His next vote was for Guardian

after

he claimed (and again, he didn't provide a reason.)

For what it's worth, his only contributions to the thread are a random vote on TSQ, and a never clarified comment about certain Cicero comments being scummy.

I doubt Rosso is scum with Guardian (and I think my disagreement about people's assessment of Thesp has been manifestly clear.) But there's no reason Rosso can't be scum with other people.

[Thok]

Just checked in preview and we are 12 votes on RC.

people, like Fonz and MGM, who are reluctant to make a lynch happen// trying to find a reason not to vote RC and are calling this lynch suspicious should be looked at closely tomorrow, especially if RC is scum. Remember this if I'm dead. Even if RC is town, why do they not want a lynch to happen?

Because Rosso might be some sort of power role? It's clear that The Fonz and MGM want some sort of lynch to happen; they just happen to prefer a Thesp lynch to a Rosso lynch.

Some players (besides the 4 claimed ones) look obviously town to me but I'm not sure revealing that is a good thing so I won't.

This seems like a pointless comment. I also have no idea why a protown player would want to spit out his list of likely protown players less than 24 hours before a deadline. This feels like an attempt by scumyou to suggest nightkill targets to other scum groups.

[Thok]

This feels like an attempt by scumyou to suggest nightkill targets to other scum groups.

To other scum groups who can read scum-me's mind? o.o It was just me editing my post at 12:30 or what. I don't understand how me not mentioning players makes scums be able to find them.

Rolls eyes.

Obviously, in the scenario where you are scum, you're hoping somebody stupid will suggest that you do list your suggested targets, and then you get a chance to present a list of townish looking people which gives other scum groups a chance to take them out for you.

By only suggesting the idea rather than posting a list, you have an appearance of plausible deniability if somebody calls you out for it.

[Thok]

Ha, you ninja tards tried to kill me didn't you? Eat lightsaber!

*pours out a 40 for Dr. Frankenstein*

Remember, it's also possible that the lack of ninja kill could come from attempted scum cross-killing.

It's clear that Guardian doesn't have a result of the form "X targeted hasdgfas", as there's absolutely no reason to hold such a result back.

[Thok]

It's clear that Guardian doesn't have a result of the form "X targeted hasdgfas", as there's absolutely no reason to hold such a result back.

But I don't see the reason in saying 'I have a result...' all portentious like if it's anything else. Trackings of living players to living players shouldn't be announced, since that marks said player out as likely PR.

If Guardian is scum, he's trying to overplay the whole "I'm a power role, trust me, I'm not a threat" thing. See the argument I had with him at the deadline for another example.

If Guardian is town, he's playing like newbish town. I have too much respect for Guardian as town to think this is likely.

[Thok]

It's clear that Guardian doesn't have a result of the form "X targeted hasdgfas", as there's absolutely no reason to hold such a result back.

Oh?

In Ork mafia, Shanba held back results for multiple days, with great effect. I am not a cop-mason (nor am I even a cop ), as he was, so I'll reveal my result sometime today, but doing so immediately,

especially

if I have "X targeted cow", seems like it would stifle discussion.

1. Shanba did not hold back guilty results.
2. Shanba did not go "I don't know what to do with my results. Please help me decide town." He flat out said that he was choosing to hold back results.

[Thok]

Thok, what do you think about Fonz, tsq, Thesp, and Erg0?

Of those the only one I have major suspicions of is TSQ. Asking my opinions on Thesp and TSQ are sort of pointless given that I've repeatedly made a big deal of both of them.

The Fonz and Erg0 both seem protown for me, although a lot of that is from the fairly consistent play I see from both of them

Question for Guardian: If Xtoxm was really "the person you were most cetain was protown", why didn't you say anything when he was coming under pressure yesterday for his OMGUS vote on me?

[Thok]

Question for Guardian: If Xtoxm was really "the person you were most cetain was protown", why didn't you say anything when he was coming under pressure yesterday for his OMGUS vote on me?

1) Hyperbole. Gorrad & Cow were more town to me, as was MBL, as was Scope after claim.

2) He wasn't anywhere near being lynched.

3) We *had* a discussion about how it is bad to post those who I am getting high town vibes from.

While Xtoxm wasn't anywhere near being lynched, we did have a known vig alive and Xtoxm was a likely vig candidate the way yesterday ended (moreover, there was a nontrivial chance he could have been today's wagon.) And there's a difference between randomly saying "hey here's a bunch of people I find protown" near a deadline when it can't help and going "Hey stop attacking X. He's likely town for these reasons and attacking him is misguided."

[Thok]

Xtoxm wasn't even a top 3 bandwagon. How could he possibly be a good vig target?

There were several people who found him suspicious at the end of the day. The only reason he wasn't run up was because of the deadline.

Also,

vote Guardian

Die die die scum die die die.

[Thok]

This is amusing.

[Thok]

thok ill be amused when you're lynched after erg0. if town messes next two days up, it's NOT on me .

I'm curious what possible role-based info your partner could have that makes me scum.

[Thok]

Guardian, I'm saddened that you targeted me N1. Please explain before I take you off my Christmas card list.

Also, why did you imply that my vig target was town in a post of yours early today? Ninja = town?

MBL, Stoofer made a post clarifying that Xtoxm was town-he protected people from ninja deaths.

[Thok]

I'd argue that K-Scope was the only scum who claimed well, even given the claim situation. For example, I would have been against the Erg0 wagon until he claimed at which point I'd have considered his role claim a scum claim.

I feel no remorse for getting Guardian run up: that probably did as much to help town win the game as any other townie's action. In fact, I seriously considered claiming Day 1 to finish off the Guardian lynch. Of course, I got investigated and shot for that.

People need to listen to me more when I'm town. I usually know what I'm talking about. (OK, I messed up a bunch of stuff too, but there was a lot of scum in this game.)

[Thok]

(OK, I messed up a bunch of stuff too, but there was a lot of scum in this game.)

You probably also shouldn't have quoted that doc tell Xtoxm dropped.

Irrelevant, since MBL decided that light-sabering docs and being oblivious was good behavior for a vig.

[Thok]

Oh, I should add: very nice job by Ooba once the game was in the multiple Prisoner's Dilemna situation and at lynch or lose.