Cultafia: Game over

[Yosarian2]

So...if I'm reading this game right, it sounds like we most likely have 2 (or more) cults, and probably a SK. Which means there if both cult recruiters suceeded last night, we might already have as many as 5 anti-town people out of 15 here.

This has the potential to get very bad, very, very fast. We need those cult recruiters dead ASAP if the town's to have any chance at all. If there is a vig, it would be a very good idea for him to kill every night at least until any and all cult recuiters seem to be dead. I also highly reccomend that any recruitable pro-town roles (vigs, roleblockers, ect) do NOT CLAIM if they can AT ALL avoid it, unless it's the only possible way they can avoid getting lynched or unless they have some really key information from their role. And since we don't really want those people to claim, we probably want to avoid multiple bandwagon-to-a-claim tactics here.

[Yosarian2]

Good thinking, Armlx. The only other reason I can see why a vig kill is likely to fail is if the person is doc-protected, but hopefully the vig's targeting suspicious people and the doc's targeting pro-town-looking people, so that's probably not all that likely.

[Yosarian2]

EBWODP: A bit is probably exaggerated. Lynching a recruit is good, but lynching recruits for days on end is not going to win the game.

Actually, I'd go with your initial statement. Even with just one cult recruiter, lynching a recruit puts the town one step closer to losing. (Cult loses one member at day; that night, cult gains one member and town loses one member due to recruitement; net result, town falls farther behind.) Vigging cult recruits isn't bad, but lynching a cult recruit is not a good thing until after any and all recruiters are dead.

And lynching someone just because they're "likely to be recruited" is even worse, since then the cult would just recruit someone else instead. In fact,

fos:Blazerunner

for that logic.

Claims are to be avoided whenever possible, but if you do have a town power role, it is a little better to claim then to be lynched, because then at least we have a chance to lynch the cult recruiter that day instead.

Cult games are always hard to balance, and while we don't know much about the setup yet, I tend to think the odds are against us here. If we mislynch today, and if we are dealing with 2 recruiters and a SK, we might theoretically be in a situation where the town is no longer in the majority on day 2. It seems like we've got basically no margin of error this game.

[Yosarian2]

I think if someone got so cornered against the wall during the day to be forced to claim, I think the chances of the town to lynch a cult leader that day are not really good...

Eh? Why's that? Just becasue the town was wrong on one bandwagon, dosn't mean they'll be equally wrong the next time.

I had forgotten another thing. If both recruiters aim for the same person, it counts as a kill attempt. Another reason not to lynch right away, the recruiters might just end up killing him...

Another good point. Or they might not recruit him at all in order to avoid that. There's going to be a fair amount of second-guessing going on here.

[Yosarian2]

Ah...you two are correct. Ok, so if a vig fails a kill, it means that either the vig was blocked, or the target is a SK or a cult recruiter.

[Yosarian2]

vote:Blazerunner

. OMGUSing is bad.

[Yosarian2]

Unvote, Vote Yos2

I thought OMGUS was one of the scum tells you believed was overly relied on and not actually a scum tell.

Um, no, that's not at all true. There was a mafia discussion thread about the subject a month or so ago, and that's not at all what I said. Let me see if I can find it...

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, here it is.

viewtopic.php?t=7506&start=0&postdays=0 ... highlight=

As you can see, I voted yes, and then went on to explain that I did think OMGUS voting is a scumtell; a weak one, but a valid one nonetheles.

I tend to think it's usually a weak scumtell, so I voted yes.

It's not a scumtell to OMGUS vote someone day 1 when you've got nothing else to go on.

It's clearly not a scumtell to vote for someone with good reasons, no matter if they're voting you or not.

It's not even a scumtell to suspect someone slightly more because they're attacking someone you know to be pro-town (you, in this case), although considering how many votes people make over the course of a game this probably shouldn't be that significant most of the time.

However, most real OMGUS voting is voting in order to punish someone for voting you or deter them from voting for you, and/or to try and lynch off someone in order to prevent them lynching you off first, and/or an attack designed simply to discredit someone who's attacking you, and that's all solid scum-tell material. It's a scumtell because town are mostly concerned with using their votes first and formost to find and kill scum, and secondarally sometimes using their votes to deter anti-town activity. Town should not use their votes to defend themselves in this manner. However, scum care mostly about staying alive and destroying the town, in that order, and they tend to view their votes as another tool in their arsenal to do both of those things; so if someone is voting OMGUSly, or if someone is attacking for OMGUS reason, then it is a scum tell.

The complicating factor is that for pretty clear psyscological reasons, everyone tends to be more suspicious of people who are suspicious of them; the game leads to a very natural paranoia, and that can lead to votes that look OMGUSy. So, you've got to use a lot judgement here, and that's why I say it's a "weak" scum tell.

Still, scum will tactically OMGUS vote and tactically launch OMGUS attacks, both in order to defend themselves and weaken the position of their attacker, and good guys shouldn't (at least, not outside of some lynch or lose situations), so yeah, OMGUS voting is generally a scum tell (scum tell meaning "something scum do more then town").

By the way, before someone tries to nitpick me, when I mentioned "it's not OMGUS to vote someone on day 1 before you have anything to go on", I was speaking of stuff where someone random votes you on page one and you OMGUS vote them right back instead of a random vote yourself. This is different; a case was presented, it's clearly a non-random, serious vote, and he responded with a weak counter-attack and a OMGUS vote. That's scummy.

So, armlx, where did you get the idea that I thought OMGUS isn't a scumtell, exactally? Did you have me confused with someone else or something?

[Yosarian2]

Second, lynching (or in the case of a nightkill) a recruit is not necessarily bad. Your case would only be true if everyone could be recruited. But given the fact that Norinel is an experienced mod leads me to believe that not as many town players will be recruitable as expected (otherwise the town would be essentially dead with a mislynch or two). Theoretically, your case is true, but in reality, I don't think our situation is QUITE as dire as you're portraying.

Oh, hopefully you're right about unrecruitable townies, but on the other hand, the setup also strongly implies the existance of more then one cult recruiter. If the cults average one recruitment a night between then, then lynching cult recruits is still pretty bad. Besides which, even if everyone who's recruitable is dead or recruited, if the cult leader is still alive then the cult is still a mafia-like group that can kill; without him, they're much less dangerous. So cult recruits are still pretty much cannon fodder, and lynching them still wouldn't be a good thing.

[Yosarian2]

You know the funniest thing? If you are a Vanilla townie, Lurking is the best in this game. either you win with the town, or one of the cult will recruit you and you could win with the cult. I think only the SK would really try to kill a townie power role.

fos:mnowax

for suggesting that.

And no, if you lurk, you're likely to get lynched or vigged. If you get lynched or vigged as town, then you lose if the town loses, and getting lynched as town also makes the town more likely to lose. Besides, what cult would want to recruit a worthless townie? Even if you don't die, if you lurk you'd just sit there useless, and remember that if you're still town when the cult gets a majority you still lose. So no, lurking as town would be a horrible stratagy.

On the other hand, I kind of expect cult recruiters to lurk or semi-lurk, to try to stay in the background and let their expendable recruits do the dirty work. So lynching lurkers and quiet background semi-lurkers seems like a good idea this game.

[Yosarian2]

First of all, no one should claim vanillia townie, at all, under ANY circumstances. If you're vanillia townie, then no matter what, DO NOT CLAIM ANYTHING. We were talking abotu what to do if power roles claim, which is a very different thing.

On another note:

First, there was only one body tonight, and we have the SK and the vigilante. There are 3 and only 3 things that may have happened:

We don't actually know that; the mod specifically said that the following roles might or might not exist. There might be a vig, there might be a SK, there might be both, there might be neither. There might even be multiple vigs or SK's.

This is a semi-open game; what follow are all the possible role PMs, but I won't tell you which ones are actually in the game, or how many.

[Yosarian2]

Is there a reason why you killed dripping goofball?

Vote: Bladerunner

Uh...what?

There's like a 95% chance that DG was killed by either a SK or a vig or both (it's theoretically both cults tried to recruit her, but I doubt it, and it's even less likely a cult recruiter chose to kill rather then recruit night 1). Are you accusing him of being a SK? Even if he was, do you think it'd even be a good idea to lynch a SK here? I'm confused.

[Yosarian2]

I do believe we have our first claim?

We do?

[Yosarian2]

unvote

until someoen explains to me what the hell is going on here...

[Yosarian2]

Even if Mnowax did see blaze kill DGB, I'm not sure that's a reason to lynch Blaze today. Again, would we really want to kill a SK today? It seems like that would help the cult(s) more then the town.

[Yosarian2]

So, Blaze did you kill DGB?

Let me clarify something before you answer; you don't need to clarify and say if you're a vig or a SK. In fact, I'd rather you didn't specificy, because that way the cult won't know if they can recruit you, and either way we shouldn't lynch you today. However, if you say no, and we later discover Mnowax was telling the truth, I'll have to assume you're a cult leader that tried to recruit her or something, so lying is not in your best interest here.

[Yosarian2]

Unvote

Can cult leaders kill and recruit on the same night?

Nope.

You are the [cultname] Cult Leader. Every night, you may attempt to recruit one player into your cult or kill one player.

It's also true that if multiple cult recruiters try to recruit the same person, that person dies. However, in this case, I tend to think the most likely scenerio is that DGB was either vigged or killed by the SK.

[Yosarian2]

BR: You saying "Mno is lying if he claims to have investigative results on me" is dumb.

Unless it's true...

Anyway, I think we need to here from Mnowax now.

[Yosarian2]

Even if it is true, its not like we are going to take his word over Mno's without a massively drastic reason.

In a normal game, I would agree with you. But in a game like this, I could see a random cult recruit intentionally sacrificing himself in order to cause one random mislynch; it might not be a bad trade for the cult in this game.

[Yosarian2]

I like believing mnowax at the moment...if he's wrong, he's immediately on the chopping block tomorrow and rightfully so. and if he's right, we lynch a scum.

But...the thing I keep coming back to, the thing that no one seems to have answered yet, is, even if Mnowax is right and telling the truth, that would make Blaze either a vig or a SK, right? Would we really want to lynch a vig or a SK day 1 here?

[Yosarian2]

Well, I agree that a SK is a threat to both town and cult. However, at this point (basically, at any point until the cult recruiters are dead), the cult is the main threat to him; any multi-person group spells doom for a SK in endgame unless he kills most of them off first, no matter if they're masons or mafia or whatever, and with a cult recruiter it's much harder; since the SK can't be recruited, basically his only way of winning would be to take out the cult or cults, because once they have enough members and the rest of the town gets small enough they'll have little problem finding and lynching him.

And, frankly, I tend to think if there are two cult recruiters, I tend to think this game is probably balanced pretty strongly against the town. I have trouble imagining any way it could not be. If there's a lynch, a vig kill, and a SK kill each day/night cycle, it seems like there's a much higher chance of taking out the cult recruiters early enough for the town to have a reasonable chance. Especally after the disaster of Lost Boys mafia, I really feel like in any cult game, the town has a very limited window to act in a cult game; every day the town fails to get rid of the cult leader, the cult grows stronger, the town gets weaker, the town actually has less and less idea of who's town and who's not, and more and more of the strong players in the game start acting against the interests of the town. After a while it gets to be like walking through quicksand.

Obveously we'd need to eliminate a SK eventually, but at the moment, I think the more kills that hit early, even semi-random ones, the more chance the town has to kill cult recruiters, or at least to whittle down some of the cult's numbers, before the game becomes much less winnable for the town.

[Yosarian2]

Observation 1: Blaze kind of looks like a SK right now. He might or might not be, but that's less important to this argument, as the cult(s) wouldn't necessarally know if he is or is not unless he's a cult member.

Observation 2: The SK is a big theat to the cult. If the SK tries to kill and fails, he'll know it was the cult leader he targeted, and will probably either get that person lynched or kill them the next night (since the cult leader is also a big threat to the SK). And the cult has no way of dealing with the SK other then lynching him or just having a big cult in endgame; he can't be recruited and takes two nights to kill

Conclusion: Cult leaders/members are likely to get onto Blaze's wagon after Mnowax's claim.

So, based on that logic,

vote:malthusis

.

Malthusis, you completly ignored the whole "is lynching the SK a good idea" discussion, while keeping your vote on Blaze. Do you think lynching the SK day 1 is a good idea for the town? Could you explain exactally why you're voting him? Your motives here are unclear to me.

[Yosarian2]

I forgot to comment on this in my replacement post, and I'm surprised nobody else really picked up on it (do our eyes go fuzzy once someone addresses something to the mod or something?) Asking about being able to talk in twilight would only make sense if Blazerunner had something to talk

about

. If he wasn't asking just to satisfy curiousity, this can mean one of two things:

1) He had information he would want to impart
2) He had instructions he would want to give

Or, possibly, he was worried someone else might have information about him, and wanted to know if he's be able to supress that information by hammering him.

[Yosarian2]

Uh, ok. So, do we want to lynch Blaze today, on the theory he might be lying and even if he's not it's still not that bad of a lynch, or lynch someone else and hope he gets vigged tonight?

[Yosarian2]

I think at this point, the best bet is to lynch someone else and have the vig kill blaze. It's better to bandwagon someone unknown, and at least give him a chance to claim, rather then vig someone unknown and possibly lose a power role without him even having a chance to claim. The vig kill is guarenteed to kill at least a cult member, and we've got another chance to find a cult leader today. If Blaze is still alive tommorow, then we can re-think things, but he shouldn't be.

Anyway, Viking, why would the SK bother to kill a steadfast townie or whatever? A steadfast role is a threat to the cult, sure, but not really a threat to the SK.

[Yosarian2]

and yet stark has yet to post in this game major fos.

So I take it this means you have completed a statistical survey which reveals that people who don't post are scum? I'd love to see the results if you have an excel chart or something.

Um, not to answer for him, but drawing attention to the fact that Stark hasn't posted yet is a helpful thing for Viking to do. I'd strongly encourage everyone to try and keep track of who's lurking, and to bring it to the town's attention like this.


'll mention here that I think that a large number of Volkan's rules are poor town stratagy. I don't see the need to get into a detailed stratagy debate just yet, at least not until he invokes one of his rules in a way I disagree with, but just for the record, these are the parts of his rules that seem pretty much completly wrong to me. And I will also note that, general rules or not, if he tries to invoke those rules in such a way as to harm the town I will consider it to be a scumtell; you're not getting an automatic meta-pass on stuff by just making a list of rules right now, Volkan.

I am exceptionally skeptical of "town tells". Recent experience in House afia has exacerbated this.

...

3)

Any player who justifies a vote/FoS/declaration of 'suspicion'/etc. on one of the following:

• a) 'Hunch';
  b) 'Gut';
  c) 'Feeling';
  d) 'Belief'; or
  e) Anything that has a meaning similar to those of the above

will receive a stern demand from me that they give objective reasons for their vote/FoS/declaration of 'suspicion'/etc. Should they fail to do so, my expectation is that the vote/FoS/declaration of 'suspicion'/etc. will be dropped. If not, then they can expect their % ranking to increase.

Pretty much just disagree with those completly. Especally on day 1, hunches are fine, and looking for town tells and figuing out who is town is just as important as figuring out who is scum. Sure, you'll be wrong sometimes, but that applies just as much to scum tells. (Of course, in a cult game, some people's alignments might change, so town tells might be less useful here then in other games, but that's a different issue)

4)

If you want to play in a chaotic fashion, that's fine. However, if I can't understand what you are doing I will demand an explanation and justification. If you don't provide me with one, your % ranking

will

increase.

I don't entirely disagree with you on this one, but, to hold you to the same standard you are demaning of others, I take it this means you have completed a statistical survey which reveals that people who act in a chaotic fashion are scum? I'd love to see the results if you have an excel chart or something.

5)

Any person who accuses another person of being scum for one of the following:

• a) Over-reaction;
  b) Lurking;

...
Can expect their % ranking to increase.

Disagree with those two completly. Lurking, especally, is a scumtell, and better yet, it's an even better cult leader tell in this situation.

[Yosarian2]

For the love of God, mnowax, why did you just claim vig? Did you miss that entire early-game discussion about how pro-town power roles should not claim unless it's absolutly necessary? Especally since you have so little information to share; we already were assuming there's a SK. Why on Earth did you feel the need to claim?

Well, whatever. What's done is done. Just no one else claim today unless you're about to get lynched, ok? Please?

[Yosarian2]

Yeah...honestly, that was why I pretty much tried to just ignore him when he first said "I know blaze killed DGB!!!", I kinda figured it was just mnowax being random. Still, just no one else follow in his footsteps here, claiming is bad, m'k?

[Yosarian2]

Disagree with those two completly. Lurking, especally, is a scumtell, and better yet, it's an even better cult leader tell in this situation.

I've seen scum lurk. I've seen town lurk. I've wanted not to post as scum. I've wanted not to post as town. If I can identify strategic lurking, then some cause for suspicion may arise, but lurking in and of itself is a nulltell for me.

Well, I do tend to think lurking is always a scumtell, although of course like all scumtells it's not perfect. But like I said, I think it's even more crucial in this game, because the role that has the greatest motivation to stay in the background and not be noticed is the cult recruiter, which is also the role we most want to lynch. If we don't go after lurkers and semi-lurkers as a town, and I mean go after them agressivly and lynch them when it seems approperate, we could easily lose to a quet cult leader who lets his cult members do all his bandwagoning and attacking and such for him.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian, I'm not getting why claiming is bad, please re-explain it for me.

Armlx already explained this, but yeah, the point was that if there are two cult recruiters and a SK, the odds are very high that anyone who claims a recruitable power role will be recruited and/or killed shortly after. So assuming we believe mnowax's claim today, the problem is that since he claimed so early, the longer the game goes the less we can trust him since by claiming a role potentially dangerous to the cult he just inceased the odds of getting recruited by the cult.

Right now we have one person who's claimed a power role, which isn't too bad because there's a lot of WIFOM involved (There might be an anti-cult doc who might protect him, the two cults don't want to both try and recruit the same guy at the same time or he might die, ect), but if anyone else claims today, the odds get a lot worse for the town.

[Yosarian2]

@Vollkan: I was thinking something along the lines of "don't question my rules" seeing as how your discussion with Yos appears to be exactly what the list is attempting to avoid.

Heh...if he'd tried to prevent me from questioning his rules, I'd probably be voting for him right now.

[Yosarian2]

Looking back at Occult's posts...he defend Blaze early on, then only started attacking him after he claimed cult recruit. I can see him being a possible lynch.

vote:Occult

[Yosarian2]

Occult: I would buy that, if Blaze claimed right before getting lynched. I don't think he was in any real danger of getting lynched when he claimed, though. I don't really see what he would have to gain by claiming there if he was a cult leader. Of course, I don't really see why he would claim there if he was a cult recruit either.

[Yosarian2]

Posts 19, 20, and 21 are all horrible.

Fos : yosarian, armlx, curiouskarmadog

Drippinggoofball was SHOT, which is the MO of both the vig (if there is one) and the sk (if there is one). Neither of these roles are assured, but all three of these players in their first (or thereabout) posts seem to indicate the opinion, at least ,that there may not be a vig and there is an SK.

Fos fos fos. The only reason anyone could know that there is an SK and not a vig is if a cult recruited the vig last night.

Huh? Many people don't vig kill night 1, while all SK's should kill night 1, so if I see a night 1 kill I tend to think that it was more likely cause by a SK then by a vig, although I'm pretty sure I did point out that either one was possible. Is that really so irrational?

And I didn't assume there was a SK, I said there was probably a SK.

[quote[
Secondarily, I think 2 cults AND an sk seems like a bit much; if they were successful, then we just started the game with 33% scum and if we lynch wrong today, we wind up going to day 2 with 7/14(or 1 or 12) which is 50% scum which means an almost guaranteed scum win. I don't think a sane mod would use a setup which even, theoretically, COULD put the town in lylo day 1. [/quote]

Actually, I think having a SK in this setup actually increases the town's chance of winning over not having a SK in the setup, since the SK is unrecrutable and likely to kill cult recruiters or memebers.

And I also didn't say that there are two cults in my opening post. I think it's likely, mostly because the rules of this game and the discussion of the MD thread the mod linked to seem to imply that it's likely.

Yos playing ignorant, speaking as a group, building town support for himself.. not liking it... fearmongering ...

Ok, I never "play ignorant", and I certanly didn't this game. I have no idea what you mean by "speaking as a group" or "building town support for myself", unless you mean me talking about what is good for the town, which I always do when I'm trying to figure out what stratagy is good for the town, which, again, I always do. C'mon now, you've played enough games with me that you should know by now that this is what standard pro-town-Yos play looks like.

[Yosarian2]

Why would he continue even after Mno had made it clear he was going to vig Blaze? Wouldn't that effectively eliminate the problem

and

tie up a vig kill. Whereas his plan now would likely have Blaze lynched and himself vigged/investigated as backlash.

Well, if Blaze's going to get vigged anyway, he'd probably rather lynch him in order to distance, right?

I also agree that springlullaby is suspicious and lurkerish. That might not a bad lynch either.

[Yosarian2]

Well if Occult really is Blaze's leader, this situation has festered for so long that there's no course of action he could take to effectively distance. The best use for Blaze at that point would pretty much be as a meatsheild. (That's assuming Occult-leader would be able to escape today's lynch)

Eh. The question has become a really WIFOM-ish question of "if Occult was cult leader and linked to Blaze, would he think it would look more scummy if he contined to press his distancing attack on Blaze, or if he backed off under pressure?"

[Yosarian2]

And then there is Yosarian's reaction to mnowax claim, he reacted as if he knew him to be truthful, while in fact the fact that he claimed with hardly any vote on him make me find it suspicious.

(shrug) I don't know if mnowax is being truthful. I don't really care, either, as no matter what his alignment is he's likely to be dead tonight after that claim; if he's a vig, the SK will likely kill him, if he's not, the vig will likely kill him.

Then there is the idea that lynching recruit is bad. That doesn't make sense either. Of course lynching cult leader is best, but lynching recruit is not so bad if there isn't a better alternative. Because number in cults count and will I think ultimately come back to bite town in the arse if cultees are left to thrive in plain sight.

We want cult members dead, but we can't afford to lynch them yet. If we lynch a cult member, then another person gets recruited tonight, it's bad for the town, since the cult didn't get any smaller and then the town did. What we need to do is lynch cult recruiter(s), and we need to do it now. If we don't, then no matter how many cult recruits we lynch, we still lose.

[Yosarian2]

Look, if blaze is cult recruit his claim makes no goddamn sense at the point in the game he did it.

If blaze is a leader, I can find find some reasons for his claim.

His claim was a bad idea no matter what.

I could see a recruit claiming like that, especally an inexperenced person who's not really sure what he should be doing as a cult recruit. But a cult leader making that claim would be horrible, it would doom him pretty quickly; if Blaze dosn't die tonight, he will die tommorow, his claim made that inevitable. He'd have been better off claiming SK or something.

[Yosarian2]

Er, no, Yos, if he's SK or Leader he's got a nightkill immunity and will live to tomorrow.

Well, if Mnowax is cult leader, he's likely to be targeted by both the vig and the SK and still die tonight. If he's SK, he'll be targeted by the real vig, and if that dosn't kill him the real vig is likely to claim tommorow. Really, I can't see Mnowax claiming what he did unless he's telling the truth, there's just no reason he would.

[Yosarian2]

No, as a leader his claim of being a recruit draws attention away from him....

...

Draws attention away from him? How does Blaze have LESS attention on him then otherwise? Isn't it clear that his claim dooms him to die at some point, when otherwise he was under very little real threat today?

Not to mention, if he's a lying leader, he's quite unnecessarally risking drawing a roleblocker counterclaim by claiming he started the game as a roleblocker.

[Yosarian2]

Not to mention, if he was lying cult leader he'd also putting himself at even MORE risk by claiming to have blocked TSS last night, who might easily have been able to say "no, I wasn't blocked last night". All in all, his claim makes absolutly no sense at all as a cult leader who wasn't even under any real pressure, Occult.

[Yosarian2]

TSS isn't a confirmed power role and even if he was how would he know if he was blocked. We're also not even sure if there is a role blocker or if he would claim. I'm just saying you shouldn't rule it out so easily.

Of course we don't know that. The point is, a cult leader wouldn't know either of those things either, and so adding in the whole roleblocker part of the claim just adds lots of extra risk for absolutly no reason if he's not telling the truth.

[Yosarian2]

Unvote, Vote: Yosarian2

I didn't like his reaction to mnowax' claim, I'm liking his casual dismissal to my comment even less.

I explained why I think mnowax is probably telling the truth. Yeah, it was a dumb claim to make, but it'd be an even dumber lie to make.

Then again, it looks like you just don't like it that one pro-town person is trusting another, because that messes with your plans, since after this post on your part I'm much more certain that you're scum.

Your reasoning about how cult leader would play is also full of BS and WIFOM.

If I were a cult leader, I would want to play in the most town-like manner possible, so as to leave no possible angle of attack for as long as possible.

Nice attempt at a WIFOM defense there. You're basically doing the "if I was scum I would want to act more pro-town" defense here, and that's just pointless.

Both are plausible, so you see, my behavior can be only be said to be scummy in general.

No, that's just wrong. It's not just "scummy in general", it's scummy like a scum who dosn't want to be at all noticed, with is more cult leader like then cult recruit like.

Besides, if even you're admitting that you've acted "scummy in general", then I think it's time for a

vote:springlullaby

.

Especally after this post, it's becoming quite clear that you're the scum./

The fact that want to imply that I'm a cult leader when my play can't possibly tell you that makes me find you very scummy indeed.

Oh? Annoyed we figured it out, are you? Or are you trying to say you're actually some other kind of scum?

I'd like wagon on Yosarian2 and armlx, they have voiced both crap theories about not claiming and stuff.

...

Crap theories? What? Claiming is bad this game most of the time, unless you're about to get lynched. It was a bad move when monowax did it, and it'd be an even worse move for anyone else to do it unless they were under threat of lynch, and even then only if their claim was likely to prevent the lynch.

I'm sure that a cult leader like you would like it if all the recruitable pro-town roles would just stand up and claim now, but it's not going to happen.

[Yosarian2]

Note: I am aware that a few people have claimed, but I have been really busy this last weekend so I forget who claimed vig or whatnot. I'll figure it out later, but that is actually going to help me read this with a clean slate. I Think MNOWAX and Blazerunner both claimed *something* but I forget what.

Mnowax claimed vig, Blaze claimed cult recruit.

Armlx calls out Yos, for voting Blazerunner for OMGUS voting TheSilentSpeaker, who squirms delightfully and pulls up his 'official post' on OMGUS. The only way his post could be seen as applicable, though, is if he thought that A) TSS was town (or at least on his team) or B) he is twisting the normal OMGUS into something like this.

Armlx attacked me because he apparently was under the impression that I didn't think OMGUSing is scummy, probably because he got it confused with something else I said in a different thread. I showed that he was wrong, and he dropped the attack.

And yeah, I do think that Blaze's attack on TSS was an OMGUS attack, an attack entirely motivated by a desire to hit back at the person attacking you rather then one based on an honest suspicious. It looked like that to me. That wasn't the only reason I was suspicious of Blaze, but it was part of it. And now that Blaze has claimed scum, I think I can quite happily say that I was right about that.

Yos's 58: The setup takes pains to let everyone know what would happen if there are two cults (ie cult recruitors are unrecruitable) but there's nothing in the setup that would strongly indicate there is one recruitor or two, except for that line about the recruitors being unrecruitable.

Well, both in this thread and in the thread where he discussed the setup, the mod went into detail about what would happen if there were multiple cult recruiters, so at this point, I think it's likely that there are. Of course you are right that we don't know that for sure, which I think I already mentioned.

Yos suggests that tcult recruiters will lurk and fosses mnowax for suggesting townies do the same. Actually... I will give Yosarian brownie points for this one

Note

but has YOS been lurking? Most of his play up to that point has been... defensive, right?

Eh? Defensive how? I was only attacked once, by amrlx, and that was based on him misremembering a position I took in the MD forum.

Yos tells vanillas not to claim. WHy? IF forced to claim or die, you are requesting them to die. Why?

If someone claims vanillia, is that going to stop people from voting them? It really shouldn't, in any game, and certanly not here. All that does is help the cult figure out both who is and is not recruitable, and to figure out who is and is not a power role. If you're under attack and you're vanillia, you should defend yourself to the best of your ability without claiming; a vanillia claim won't help the town figure out if they should lynch you or not anyway, and if you manage to survive the vanillia claim does help the scum a great deal.

Yosarian attacks Mnowax for this... this is interesting, he suggests that DGB may have been attacked by BOTH the vig and the SK although it says in the rules that any and all kill attempts would be noted, and since DGB only was shot once we know that she was only attacked by one playe r(successfully, anyways). HE begins to pry Mnowax about what he knows; if Blazerunner was fake-soft-claiming, this is Yosarian trying to get a claim out of Mnowax, since Mnowax 'took the bait', which means if one is cult, the other probably is, too. The last bit about 'why would we kill the SK?" might be considered an additional defense of Blaze as something OTHER than cult recruitor - which is intriguing. I can't imagine the cult recruitor would defend a lowly recruit (even a recruited vig if that WERE the case) like that, which implies that yosarian might be the recruit.

YOu're being silly here. I thought Blaze looked suspicious quite early on and attacked him. I only opposed the bandwagon when it became about "Mnowax says Blaze killed DGB", partly because if Blaze did kill DGB then that might actually be a reason to want to keep Blaze alive; at the very least, the wagon really didn't make any sense at that point; and partly because I always wondered if Mnowax was just being wierd.

yosarian plays deaf and dumb... more fossing necessary

That's the second time you've said that, I still have absolutly no idea what the hell you're talking about, and it's starting to get on my nerves. I don't think I've ever "play deaf or dumb" in this game at all.

yos reasserts his SK thing, although he's been hiding out ever since blaze was 'caught', a dramatically different appproach.

"Hiding out"? WTF are you talking about?

141 -Curious what YOS meant in this post; who is he implying is the scum recruit, mnowax or blaze?

Mnowax. Blaze's repeated insistance that he didn't kill DGB sounded honest to me, and I was trying to figure out what was going on. I never really thought it was that likely Mnowax was a cult recruit doing a crazy gambit, but it did seem possible at the time.

[Yosarian2]

I think SL is likely to be a cult leader, yeah. As for who's her recruit, who knows; she could very easily have failed to recruit night 1.

[Yosarian2]

I explained it in the the post where I voted for you, springlullaby, a post which I note you never bothered to respond to.

I think you look scummy, and specifically like the kind of scum who wants to stay in the background, which sounds more Cult Leader-ish then Cult Recruit-ish.

[Yosarian2]

Just to clarify, do you think that Yosarian proposed idea for town to never claim is a good idea? You realize that that idea was what I called crap upon, right?

Well, pro-town roles claiming without a bloody good reason for it is almost always bad for us in this game; they'll probably either get recruited or killed. I'm not sure why you disagree with that.

And what do you think Yosarian is 'right' about? I pointed out that the argument armlx used, and which Yosarian echoed later, to persuade town that I was

a cult leader

was WIFOM and as such an invalid one to be convinced that I was a cult leader, and that using this argument was scummy in itself. How do you expect me to defend from a WIFOM argument in the first place?

WIFOM is not a wand you can wave to make valid arguments against you that you don't like go away.

Beside I did not at any time play to stay unnoticed, and I believe that if you care to examine my play, you'll reach that conclusion as well.

I have examined your play; you've said very little this game, and most of what you have done dosn't make sense to me.

[Yosarian2]

Are you deliberately misreading me?

I never said 'town claiming without a bloody good reason' was a good idea.

Uh, then why are you attacking me? I did say that there are a few situations where a pro-town person might want to claim; a pro-town person with a power role might want to claim if he's about to get lynched and he thinks claiming truthfully will prevent that, or there might be (rare) situations where a pro-town power role has enough information to make a claim worthwhile. All I did was point out the the risks of any pro-town role claiming are much higher then normal in this game, that vanillia townies should NEVER claim (they shouldn't even claim in a normal game, but it's esepcally bad in this game), and that people shouldn't role claim unless they absolutly have to.

All I've done is offer good, pro-town stratagy advice, you haven't been able to give a reason why you think by advice is anti-town, but yet you seem to be trying to use it as an excuse to attack me, for reasons I don't entierly understand. Your wierdness on this issue is one of the reasons you look really scummy.

In fact, I argued against it when I said that your reaction to mnowax claim didn't feel right to me. Wouldn't you say that it is quite queer for someone who cried so loudly that town shouldn't claim to not express any concern over the fact that mnowax claimed under very little pressure?

Oh, I hate mnowax's play. Him claiming was a pretty serious error, and his earlier behavior about blaze and all that was perhaps even worse. Nonetheless, I think he's probably telling the truth, and I think he'll probably be able to prove tonight that he's telling the truth by killing Blaze; I'm not interested in trying to attack someone I think most likely is an honest pro-town vig, no matter what play errors he's made.

If you've got a rational reason to think Mnowax is lying scum, I'd like to hear it, but first you've got to explain how anything about Mnowax's play today would make any logical sense as a scum play on his part.

I'm liking skruffs' suspicions because the plan for not claiming didn't make any sense to begin with. Of course town should be cautious about claiming because the nature of the game, but if one is gonna be lynched anyway, a last attempt to put town off a wrong tract is only sensible, which isn't to say that town is under any obligation to believe a claim.

Uh...what? I SAID THAT if you have a power role, and if you think claiming your power role will prevent a claim, then you SHOULD claim, since while a power role claiming is bad it's not quite as bad as mislynching a power role. I made that quite clear earlier in the game, so I'm not sure where you're getting this strange idea that I was arguing no one should ever claim under any circumstances.

Then there is this little treasure of nonsense from armlx.

Yosarian, I'm not getting why claiming is bad, please re-explain it for me.

Because those that claim pro-town recruitable roles, especially power roles that don't harm the SK such as the cop, create massive WIFOMs

as instead of dying and being death confirmed, they can become scum.

Non-recruitable roles claiming simply lowers the target pool for the cult(s) to hit recruitables.

I'm pretty sure death via lynch is still < potential cult recruitment, but claiming outside of that scenario is not helping the town.

Assuming that blues would only claim under direct threat of being lynched, tell me Yosarian, do you agree with this as well?

Uh, what? In that very thing you quote, he specifically said that it's better to claim and risk potential cult recruitement then to get lynched, which seems to be the exact point you're trying to argue here. Are you delibratly misinterpreting everything everyone says here?

As for the WIFOM, I suppose arguing against WIFOM with WIFOM wasn't a good idea, but there is little one can say against "you lurk, it is what a cult leader would do, lynch".

My argument was never WIFOM in any real sense. Your defense was compeltly WIFOM.

Moreover, what I pointed out was that the particular WIFOM armlx used was a very weak one because saying that my saying that 'cult leaders would want to appears as pro-town as possible' is equivalently plausible.

No, it's not.

If you do a scummy act, you can't say "But scum wouldn't want to look scummy, they would want to look pro-town, so why would a scum act scummy?" The fact is, scum do act scummy dispite the fact that doing so might make them look less pro-town, because acting scummy means to act in a way that helps the scum win, if they get away with it.

Flying under the radar is a perfect example. It's a great scumtell, because it's something scum tend to do, because it's one of those things that, IF THE SCUM GET AWAY WITH IT, helps them win. So the town's job is to not let the scum get away with it. And that's even more true of a cult recruiter, who's primary goal during day 1 is to survive at least a few days in order to help their cult grow; they don't really care very much what happens during the day, so long as they don't die, so they have an extremly strong incentive to try and fly under the radar. Yes, that's partly balanced out by the fact that smart townies might be on the lookout for scum trying to fly under the radar, but only partly.

And your argument abotu me an Armlx is silly. "X and Y agree on some stuff, therefore they're probably scum together" is an inherently bad argument, at least until you know the alignment of one of those two people. I tend to think that the most likely explination is that Armlx agrees with me on some stuff because I'm making sense, because you're not, and because you just look scummy, which is the same reason that lots of other people seem to agree with me on the same things.

[Yosarian2]

@Yos: Your vote is still on Occult.

Oh, good point. Did I forget to unvote or something before I voted SL?

Anyway,

unvote

vote:springlullaby

I believe that's lynch -1, by the way.

[Yosarian2]

AHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!

Yosarian is either SK or Cult leader. I tried to vig Yos last night. i didn't go after Blaze.

Plus , i am still alive which is wierd, but ill take it!

If you're telling the truth, then that means Blaze roleblocked you.

Why, exactally, would you try to kill me after promising yesterday you'd kill the claimed cult recruit? You actually CLAIMED VIG, JUST so we would know that you were about to target Blaze, so we would know that if you died he was cult leader. So, why the hell would you go and change that? If you had died and blaze had lived, that would have led to a mislynch.

ALso, I'm confused about why exactally Blaze claimed cult memeber if he really wasn't recruited? WTF?

[Yosarian2]

And yeah, the most likely scenerio here is that Mnowax just got recruited.

[Yosarian2]

First thoughts, while reading the posts

scenario 2

mnowax could be cult and claiming falsely:

In this case the real vig decided yesterday not to counterclaim yet. Did he guess there could be a second vig? Did he think it was wise to not claim?

2b, the one I think is most likely:Mnowax was town yesterday, and was telling the truth now. But after he claimed vig, he became a likely cult recruit. So the theory I think is most likely is:

Mnowax was pro-town yesterday
He killed Blaze last night, just like he said he would
Then he got recruited
Now that he's been recruited, he's become scum, and has decided to lie in order to try and get me lynched.

That's the most likely theory, I think.

[Yosarian2]

Hjallti's last post is very logical, though I'm wondering how Yosarian missed his list of experienced quality players. I have a pretty good idea why this could be true, but I want to hear his answer.

Eh...I understand his point, but I don't think it's entierly valid, for the same reason that experenced players don't always get killed in a normal mafia game; because while they're tempting targets, they're also more likely to be doc-protected. Same applies here.

[Yosarian2]

Well, then, care to explain why you targeted me? Or why you would vote for me based on that?

[Yosarian2]

i am quite serious. i just randomly picked yos hence the phrase random choice. Like i said in he very beginning, the best way to win here as a CL is to lurk. My opinion yos among other people was relative lurkers. i just figured id pick him.

Um, I'm not a lurker and never was, I'm one of the most active people in the game and have been all game. Are you paying attention here?

And I really hope you're scum, I hope that as vig you wouldn't actually go and say "Hey, you know what, let me just kill Yosarian for lurking even though he's the second most active guy in the game".

Lynch me if you want. it will prove i am a vig. my power is all gone. i have to wait two days before i can kill again, and by then i will almost certainly be culted, and useless. I have made terrible assumptions in this game, and if the only way to prove who i am is in death, then so be it. i also don't want to be a recruit, either do id rather die noble.

Or perhaps you want to die because you're a recruit and don't want to be? Perhaps you figured you wanted to take me down with you, perhaps your cult recruiter asked you to?

[Yosarian2]

Why, then, was Blaze's block of him ineffective? Blaze is confirmed pro-town roleblocker, not recruited (or was killed before recruiterd, but that doesn't effect his play yesterday) - he 'true claimed' in twilight and said he would block MNOWAX, and there is no reason to think he wouldn't do that, considering that the rest of his post was also true.

That's a fair point. But if Mnowax was blocked, and you're right he probably was, that still dosn't explain any of his other actions. It dosn't explain why he's claimed he tried to kill me for reasons that make no sense, it dosn't explain why he's voting for me supposedly because of his night action even though he was blocked.

I'm more willing to believe MNOWAX is a cult-recruiter and blazerunner was SK'd or vigged by someone else than that mnowax was recruited last night.

I guess that could be too. It seems less likely to me, but Mnowax has acted so weird this game he could be almost anything.

What would it benefit the cult to recruit (Rather than vaporize) a claimed vig/sk anyways?

Why wouldn't they? If the cult knows someone's recruitable, which would they rather do; kill him, in which case the town loses one member, or recruit him, in which case the town loses one member and they gain one member? Even just recruting someone and then trying to get the town to use a lynch on him is more in the cult's favor then just killing him outright.

[Yosarian2]

TSS, I don't think a person would normally get modkilled for making a threat of "if I get recruited, I would do X", since that could easily just be a pro-town gambit (I think PJ did that once as a gambit). You'd get modkilled for doing it, sure, but that's a whole different thing.

[Yosarian2]

This debate is a bit silly. Skruffs, if you make a bad argument, people can, will, and should point out that it's a bad argument. That's one of the things pro-town people should pretty much always do. If you think it's bad that someone else isn't making cases of their own, and want to attack them for it, that's fine; but the fact that someone else isn't making cases is NOT a defense against you making an illogical case.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah; of the 3 of them, Volkan's reaction has been the wierdest here, I'd agree with you on that NN.

[Yosarian2]

Volkan: I can appriciate a good debate as well as anyone, trust me; but, um, any thoughts on who might be scum?

[Yosarian2]

There are no scum in Cultafia.

From the Wiki:

Scum
see also: Anti-town
Scum is a catch-all term for any member of an informed minority, such as Serial Killers and Mafia goons. During a day phase, everybody is seemingly trying to locate and eliminate these roles.

It is typical to use the word scum as an adjective or other means as well. (i.e. That's a scummish thing to do. or You are acting quite scummy.)

So, yes, there are scum.

This might seem like a semantic nitpick, but really, it's not, since I'd say "scum tells" apply pretty well to any anti-town role, especally an anti-town faction like a cult.

[Yosarian2]

This might seem like a semantic nitpick, but really, it's not, since I'd say "scum tells" apply pretty well to any anti-town role, especally an anti-town faction like a cult.

Fine, but where were you when I made 174?

Uh...I had more important stuff to talk about then? Heh. I'll admit that half the reason I mentioned that is I'm just trying to find something to talk about here, to get some kind of conversation going, both to hopefully stop the game from stalling and to hopefully get that deadline extension.

It's worrying that a mod mentiones a "retractable deadline" but yet most of the people in the game stay quiet. Why aren't more people posting?

[Yosarian2]

To repeat myself,

Volkan: I can appriciate a good debate as well as anyone, trust me; but, um, any thoughts on who might be scum?

In fact,

vote:Volkan

. With a deadline, I'm starting to wonder if he's intentionally drawing out a pointless debate, repeating the same points over and over again, just to stall us out. I wouldn't mind if he was actually voting for Skruffs and/or making a case against Skruffs, but as it just feels like he's trying to look active for the sake of trying to look active but not really doing anything helpful.

[Yosarian2]

To repeat myself,

Volkan: I can appriciate a good debate as well as anyone, trust me; but, um, any thoughts on who might be scum?

In fact,

vote:Volkan

. With a deadline, I'm starting to wonder if he's intentionally drawing out a pointless debate, repeating the same points over and over again, just to stall us out. I wouldn't mind if he was actually voting for Skruffs and/or making a case against Skruffs, but as it just feels like he's trying to look active for the sake of trying to look active but not really doing anything helpful.

I see two points here. 1) You can't see any point to the argument, therefore 2) it is most likely I am scum trying to lead people up a never-ending staircase.

2) is conjecture and unfalsifiable. It's your assumption as to my motive and I can say no more about it.

However, 2) is very much dependent on 1) being true. And I can address 1). Do I think Skruffs is scummy on the basis of our argument? Yes. I haven't voted for him simply because I am trying to see if I can understand where he is coming from. Suffice to say, that I do think Skruffs is scummy - primarily from the fact that he strikes out against Armlx's level of content in defence of his own, which expands through the argument we have been having.

Ok, that wasn't coming through in your argument with Skruffs. Could you back up for a minute and explain why, exactally, you think Skruff's actions are scummy?

It feels like the last few weeks of this game have been a back and fourth with:

You: X was a bad case
Skruffs: Well, at least I'm trying to make a case on someone
You: Yes but it was a bad case
Skruffs: But, at least I'm trying to make a case on someone
You: Yes but it was a bad case
Skruffs: But, at least I'm trying to make a case on someone
You: Yes but it was a bad case
...

And so on. That's really where it feels like this is going.

So, yeah. You think Skruffs is scummy? Could you try to explain why you think his actions make him likely scum? Also, with 10 days before deadline, if you think he's scummy and aren't suspicious of anyone else (or haven't voiced any suspicions on anyone else), why aren't you voting him? Do you have any other major suspects?

And Skruffs: I don't know why you seem to always do this; you're basically logically in the wrong here, and you've spent ages trying to defend a position where you're logically in the wrong. What are you trying to prove here? What do you think you have to gain from this endless debate?

[Yosarian2]

I'm not too sure of what your point is when you say that the case is not going anywhere. I agree that, thus far, the case is far lynch-worthy. I don't see why that fact means that I should desist from engaging in dialogue with Skruffs on this point.

I don't care if you "engange in dialogue" with him or not. But if you think he's scummy, you need to be voting for him. If you're not sure, you need to be voting for someone else while you keep attacking him.

For that matter, EVERYONE needs to start voting. Why are so many people currently voting for no one at all?

I find scummy the fact that the only thing he tried to present as a case was a truly feeble point. I also find scummy the fact that he then tried to invert that by turning it into a justification to fire off at Armlx for criticising his case. I also find scummy the fact that he has repeatedly now made a very poor defence of his position, despite remaining adamant.

Could you explain why you think a scum would be more likely to do any or all of that then a townie would?

Do I have other suspects? I always have a sort of mental ranking (ala my numbers), but I need to reread in order to ensure that it is not just delusion of gut.

Nothing wrong with voting on gut at this point. But voting for no one is foolish.

About the worst possible thing one could possibly do in a cult game would be to do a no-lynch, but we seem to be drifting that way at the moment. Anyone who's not voting right now is suspicious becuase of that, but at the moment, you're at the top of that list, because you're being quite active while not voting, it seems like you're perfectly happy with the dead-end path the town is calmly floating towards here. I'd expect a pro-town player who's paying as much attention to the game and spending as much time on the game as you apparently are right now to be trying to move the town towards some kind of bandwagon, and it dosn't feel like you are.

[Yosarian2]

Yos:
I will try not to rehash what I've said over and over again; obviously my poisiont in this argument is my own and I'm not going to bend to the will of other people.

Regardless of the reasoning of why I voted Hjtill, I think that some of the reactions I got were more vested in defending him then they should have been. Vollkan and Armlx, to be precise, attacked my case while at the same time,a nd I've pointed this out, offering none of hteir own. Their intentions, to me, seemed clear : They were defending Hjltill and had no obvious (to me) reason to be doing so.

The thing is, Skruffs, when someone attacks your argument, you basically have two options. You can either defend your ARGUMENT, continue to argue that it is valid despite their objections, or you can drop or downplay your argument and move on to something else. What you did was to basically question someone else's right to question your argument, and that's not only badly logically flawed, it would be bad stratagy. And then you kept arguing the point endlessly, even though you were, well, pretty much wrong; everyone has the right to question anything said by anything else, or else the game of mafia dosn't really work well. Frankly the whole "argument about arguing about arguments" was so drawn out and pointless it kind of make me forget what your origional argument was in the first place, and I honeslty don't really care anymore either.

I don't really think that's a scum tell in your case, but I don't think the argument is helpful, and you (and the town) would have been better off if you had either kept it on a relevent topic "like "is X scum", or else if you had just dropped it.

[Yosarian2]

I just want to work out where you are coming from here: Why do I "need" to be voting anybody at this point in time?

Well, there's, what, 8 or so days left before deadline, and basically no one is voting right now. That's bad. In order to really get the most info out of today, ideally we want to be able to first get everyone to commit to a vote on who they think is the scummiest person, then to have everyone come together and form a bandwagon on someone many of us agree on, while still having enough time left to completly disband that wagon and put another one together if that person has a good role-claim or a strong defense or whatever. The longer everyone goes without voting, the less info we get today, the less likely we are to make a really informed lynch today, the less likely it is we'll have time to have everyone comment on the bandwagon before lynch, the more likely we screw up and no-lynch, ect. Basically, not voting right now is bad.

Well, to begin with, my opinion of skruffs the player is that he is competent and not a VI/newbie. If I am wrong at this point, do let me know. From that,

Skruffs is a competent player, he's not a VI or a newbie, and he's a reasonably good scumhunter. That being said, and no offense intended to Skruffs, this kind of logical argument and game stratagy discussion dosn't seem to be his strong suit. If you want an example, take a look at the whole "don't fish for power roles" discussion in Open 14, http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtop ... highlight=. Granted I was scum that game, but Skruffs was town, and I think you'll get a good idea of what my meta on him is from day 1 of that game.

1) The Hjallti attack - He initially gives no reasons for the vote upon Hjallti. He then only backs this up by picking on what looks to be a "slip". What I find scummy is the way he views this slip as sufficient justification for a vote insofar as he doesn't give any indication as to why that alleged slip somehow outweighs anything else he read (remember, he had multiple claims of suspicions in his reread) and, moreover, he pays no heed to whether or not the slip is actually a slip at all. Maybe you have a different opinion on this, but my impression is that Skruffs would be a tad more nuanced if he were town - and actually give some explanation, either with the initial vote/justification or subsequently, as to why he thinks it to be a scum slip as opposed to just language difficulties.

Eh. It's a weak reason to vote someone, and I personally think Hjallti's town. It's not a totally illogical one, though, and I'd rather see someone voting for some kind of reason then not vote for anyone at all.

3) On the argument - Similar to the above. He's avoiding admitting that he is wrong, despite his position being ridiculous. Wriggling out of it rather than either proving me wrong, or admitting defeat. His concern here seems to be solely self-preservation, rather than doing the best job at scum-hunting.

Yeah, he should have dropped the argument a long time ago. Again, though, I don't think that's actually a sign of scumminess; it dosn't even look like he's attempting "self-preservation" here, since his constant defending of that weak point is more likely to get him lynched then anything else.

[Yosarian2]

No, we are not. If a cult leader killed, someone would be found with a brain omelet. All we've seen so far are lead sandwiches.

TSS, I think that fried brains thing is only if a person dies because two different cults tried to recruit him at once, they get their brain fried from the two mind control satalites or something like that. I don't think we know what it'd look like if a cult leader actually killed instead of recruiting.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, huh, my mistake.

I wouldn't really expect the cult or cults to be trying to kill right now anyway.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, huh, my mistake.

I wouldn't really expect the cult or cults to be trying to kill right now anyway.

Once the cults start killing, the town has already lost anyways as it means they think they are in a dominant enough position that their only threats are the other scum.

Well, not necessarally. Heck, if one cult leader thought he knew today who the other cult leader was, I wouldn't be surprised if he killed him tonight; assuming there are more then one cult, I think the cults are ALREADY bigger threats to each other then the town is to either cult.

[Yosarian2]

Note, however, that you still haven't given a halfway logical reason for why you targeted ME, specifically. Frankly, that's still most of the reason I think you're likely to be a cult recruit who wanted to get me lynched, Mnowax; the only reason you claimed to have was that you say you thought I was a "lurker", but I was actually the most active person in the game on day 1.

I guess it's possible you really are a vig who tried to kill me for no freaking reason at all last night, but, well, argghh. I'd honestly rather think you're lying scum then to think that you'd really play that randomally as town.

[Yosarian2]

Well, I still think Mnowax is likely to be a recruit. If absolutly necessary, though, I'll vote him at deadline, since lynching a recruit is better then a no-lynch.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, I'm still here as well.

I guess I'm still willing to lynch Volken, although I'll admit I'm not quite feeling it as strongly as I was when I voted him. If anyone's got a better idea about who to lynch, I'd like to hear it. In any case, I'd really like the 6 people not voting to figure out who they think should die today...

[Yosarian2]

Volkan: That depends on what that claim would be; I don't think vanillia townies should ever claim, ESPECALLY in this game.

[Yosarian2]

Mno attempts to recruit Yos, it fails meaning Yos dying is a good thing for him and he tries to press a Yos lynch on poor reasoning.

Uh, that dosn't make a lot of sense, armlx; I mean, hypo-Mno-recruiter would have known he'd be roleblocked, right? So if he "attemted to recruit me and failed", why would that make him want to kill me since he'd have known he was roleblocekd anyway?

[Yosarian2]

I was going more along the line of logic that he knew he was going to be roleblocked, got recruited, then decided to try and get me lynched without really thinking through the fact that everyone else'd also know he got roleblocked. Perhaps planning to suddenly "realize" Blaze had said he was going got roleblocked after I get lynched and come up town.

I donno, it still dosn't make THAT much sense, but it was the most logical explination for his actions I could come up with.

[Yosarian2]

why does everyone think i am cult???

Because you're acting scummy? Because your claimed night actions make no sense?

[Yosarian2]

Oh, and CKD is scum... again!!!

Yes.

unvote:Volkan

vote:curiouskarmadog

[Yosarian2]

Yos, you are one of the persons who I was referring to as trying to Coerce people into putting their votes where their mouth is, and as far as I am aware, only people who were suspicious of me.

I was trying to get people to vote, yes, especally people who were active and posting a lot but not voting.

Unvoting vollkan make it more likely l am lynched, especially chasing after a cow lynch so late in the game, especially after cow puts a vote on me as your reasoning. Do you want me to be lynched? If so, and you are town, why the underhanded maneuvering?

Heh...the world dosn't revolve around you, Skruffs.

If I wanted you to be lynched, I'd be voting for you. Personally, I don't think you're especally suspicious looking, and I've actually been both defending you and attacking people who were attacking you.

And I'm voting for curiouskarmadog because Volkan looks somewhat less scummy now then he did when I first voted for him, and becuase CKD looks scummy as heck right now. Do you disagree?

[Yosarian2]

Yos:
But you didn't post a significant case against CKD, which means your vote is effectively a throwaway vote: Nobody is going to follow it.

We'll see. We've already gotten some interesting reactions to it, don't you think?

Unless CKD responds (and he probably won't or he would have put more in the post in which he voted me) nobody is going to pay any attention to it until tomorrow, after someone has been lynched. Do you think Vollkan is more likely town than I am? If so, then your vote is justified. If not, then you should be voting me. -

If I have to make a "lynch A or lynch B" choice at deadline, then I'll do that. And yes, if it came down to a "lynch Skruffs or lynch Volkan" thing , I'd vote for Volkan. We still have a few days left, though, so for now I think it's best I have my vote on who I'd actually most like to see dead, especally since others seem to suspect CKD as well.

And I know you know this because you got an award for exactly the kind of stuff I am asking you why you are doing.

Aha! I KNEW it was the "manipulater" award thing that was making you paranoid here, lol.

Again, Skruffs, it's not all about you. My main goal here isn't to lynch you OR to save you. I don't think you're especally suspicious, but I don't see any reason to assume you're town here either, and it seems like you're expecting me to push a counterwagon just in order to save you; why would I feel the need to do that?

Lastly, your comment that the world doesn't revolve around me is very troublesome. I pointed out how your action directly affects me. Saying that the world doesn't revolve around me as a response is basically agreeing with what I asked: You are writing me off, or something.
You have just said that you aren't particularly suspicious of me, and I just pointed out how what you did is indirectly helping to get me lynched. So, yes, the world does revolve around me, at least in regards to who you are voting for.

My point with that comment was just to say that I'm not taking any actions with the goal of getting you lynched, but I'm also not going to make sub-par actions just in order to prevent you from being lynched; there's more to this game then just your survival, Skruffs. I'm voting for someone right now because I think curiouskarmadog looks like scum, and I think that voting for him right now is the best way to both improve the chances of finding scum and to get information.

If you want me to go back to the Volkan wagon right now, then convince me Volkan is scum. I'm not going to vote for Volkan just in order to help you; I think it's fairly likely you're town, but I'm not THAT sure about it.

It's not being self-absorbed to point out what people are doing that leads to your own lynching.

(shrug) No, but it's a bit paranoid to assume that everything everyone does is DESIGNED to hurt you.

[Yosarian2]

you lynch me you lynch a vig. i am warning all of you guys.

Heh. A vig who won't get to kill again for at least 2 days, if you survive that long, and who says he tried to kill me but can't give a single reason why he would that.

Now, I still don't think you should be lynched today, but considering your track record so far this game, you claiming vig does not really make me feel more inclined to keep you alive here...

[Yosarian2]

Well, there *might* not be a vig, but it would surpise me if there wasn't one; both because cult games should generally have a pro-town vig, and all that stuff in the setup about the SK being immune to the first kill on him and the vig only killing everyone other night and all that makes it sound like the mod really thought through the idea of what a vig should look like and how it should work in this setup. And if there's a vig and it's not mnowax, it seems likely that that vig would have have expected killed Mnowax last night, although that's not necessarally true.

[Yosarian2]

I disagree; the concept of multiple roles had already been introduced yesterday, so a *smart* vig may have thought that it was possible that there were multiple vigs.

See how my theory encompasses said issue. Its really convenient to have everything fit together so well.

Well, yeah, except..it dosn't make much sense or seem especally likely. But other then that it's a good theory...

Anyway, we still need to be lynching curiouskarmadog. Let's get some more votes there...

[Yosarian2]

Well, everything except any kind of logical explination for why mnowax-cult recuiter would claim vig day one, why he would...well, why he would do anything he's done as a cult recruiter.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, I think mnowax was a vig. The claim was dumb, but I believe it was true.

[Yosarian2]

Well, mnowax, if you think we shouldn't lynch you today, then who do you think we should lynch today?

[Yosarian2]

Uh...why do you think you're "unlucky" your vig shot was blocked? Do you really think I'm scum, mnowax?

[Yosarian2]

Uh....so you voted for him because you thought he might have been recruited? Didn't we JUST go through what a bad idea that was?

[Yosarian2]

SlySly: can you explain your suspicion of the CKD train better? I'm trying to see what youa ret aking out of context and what you aren't.

I'd also like to point out that if there are two cults right now, and they have some successful recruits, then weve as much as lost the game right now.

Not really true, since the cults want each other dead as much as anyone else does, and either cult would probably gladly go along with a wagon on the other cult's recruiter at this point.

Personally, both aioqwe's and armix's actions yesterday leave a bad taste in my mouth. I'm going to go reread armix, because I've got a bad feeling about him at the moment.

[Yosarian2]

I'm curious as to why you would vote somebody on them apparently claiming recruit. Sure, they might well be recruiter, but that's not really a good enough reason. It's been discussed ad nauseum why Recruiter lynch >>>>>>>>>> Recruit lynch, so surely a recruit claim doesn't automatically merit a kneejerk vote?

\

I tend to think that a recruiter is at least as likely to claim recruit as a recruit would be. Besides, if someone claims recruit, then we know that they've pretty much got to be some kind of scum but we don't know what kind, which automatically makes them a pretty good lynch at least.

[Yosarian2]

Uh...what? What you basing that on, TSS?

I will say that I'd be up for either a aioqwe or a armlx lynch, they both look pretty shifty to me.

[Yosarian2]

I still think aioqwe is a recruit not a recruiter claiming recruit. Only thing I'm wondering is who recruited him and when/why. He seems like a very low profile recruiting target.

I donno, Arlmx, why did you recruit aioqwe?

[Yosarian2]

Ah, ok, I understand.

So, what you're saying is, aioqwe recruited you?

[Yosarian2]

Armlx: Could you explain why you think aioqwe is "more likely recruiter then recruit"?

[Yosarian2]

im killing skruffs, unless there is a problem with anyone other than skruffs saying there is a problem with it.

Meh. Let's see how this lynch goes first.

vote:aioqwe

[Yosarian2]

How easy could it be to derail a wagon on a recruiter by indicating they're a recruit?

Plus, it kind of feels like this is exactally what Armlx has been trying to do.

[Yosarian2]

You assume, Yos, that Armlx isn't trying to derail a bandwagon on

his

recruit. I could see that just as easily.

Oh, I agree. I could really go either way. I will say that I think it's more likely aioqwe would recruit armlx then the other way around, just based on experence and stuff, though.

[Yosarian2]

Uh...what, because he was right yesterday about Aioqwe?

Anyway,

vote:amrlx

. Definatly noted a strong link between him and Aioqwe yesterday.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, oh, ok.

unvote:arlmx

Skruffs, claim now.

[Yosarian2]

In as much, I might as well just see what happens when I say that I am

not recruitable

. I am not a cult recruitor, which means I am either a serial killer or a steadfast townie. I'm curious to see if the cults are a majority, and if I'm the only person left.

There is no reason to believe that MNOWAX is doing anything but blowing smoke. With the presence of a dead vig, and no evidence of a secondary vig. Which means that MNOWAX started claiming vig after he recruited VOllkan. I will look to see how VOllkan and MNOWAX respond to each other.

Um...Skruffs...if you're the SK, then you're not killable and it means Mnowax is probably telling the truth. If you're unrecrutable townie, it means he's probably a cult recruit trying to get you lynched. "I'm either the SK or a unrecrutable tonwie" is a terrible, terrible claim; if it's true, then you making it just helps the scum, but dosn't actually help us answer the question of "is mnowax lying cult, or is Skruffs a cult leader, or neither?"

[Yosarian2]

Skruffs, claim now.

What you just did dosn't count. What we really need is a claim from you that either says "I am nightkillable, mnowax could be telling the truth" or "I am not nightkillable, mnowax is lying". We need to know that, to start out with, and then we can move on from there.

If you are the SK, claim SK, because I don't think lynching the SK would be the right move here for the town. If you don't claim, or if you give a claim that is proven false when Mnowax dies, then we lynch you. Clear?

[Yosarian2]

So here's my theory. Mnowax was recruited N1 or so by that fuchsia-king armlx; this explains why he was allowed to threaten to betray any cult that came a-calling -- because no cult could successfully recruit him thereafter. Yos was probably recruited by the ceruler the same night, if he's not unrecruitable altogether himself. I mention Yos here because N2, armlx tries to recruit Yos, fails, infers badguy; next day his henchman tries to drum up some enmity against Yos to get rid of a thorn in his leader's side while keeping armlx some deniability. N3, armlx recruits aioqwe. And thus to last night, when Armlx tried to target Skruffs and failed, and mnowax claimed the targeting himself on armlx's behalf again.

Yeah...that dosnt' really make sense. Mnowax might very well have been culted night 2 after claiming vig; in fact, I think it's quite likely. But I doubt anyone would recruit him night one.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, I wouldn't be opposed to an armlx lynch today, obv, but dosn't everyone agree we need to get Skruffs to finish claiming first? How does his "I'm either SK or recruit-immune-townie" claim help us here?

[Yosarian2]

Also, I have reason to suspect that TSS and Skruffs are in a cult group together, probably not the same one that Armlx and aioqwe are in. Not going to explain why now, just mentioning it for future reference.

[Yosarian2]

Yos or Skruffs should die.

...wait, I should die because I caught a cult leader? What?

[Yosarian2]

Also,

vote:Skruffs

until he actually claims at least.

[Yosarian2]

Yos or Skruffs should die.

...wait, I should die because I caught a cult leader? What?

You unvoted him when the wagon got going and tried to vote me instead. Which a normal yos would call backpedaling.

I was the first one to figure out that Armlx and aioqwe were in a cult together, I think , and I was after both of them for several days because of that. I went back and forth between thinking Armlx was the cult leader or aioqwe was the cult leader, but I was pretty sure they were both cult and both in a cult together.

I still think aioqwe is a recruit not a recruiter claiming recruit. Only thing I'm wondering is who recruited him and when/why. He seems like a very low profile recruiting target.

I donno, Arlmx, why did you recruit aioqwe?

I started out yesterday wanting to lynch armlx. I only changed over to you after mnowax claimed role information that, if true, would prove you are either a SK or a cult leader. ANd then you refused to claim in any useful way yesterday, despite that claimed role information. But you're not getting out of it today.

[Yosarian2]

If you really want me to fully claim, you should unvote me, and I will do so. But I'm only going to fully claim if I have no votes on me, since oen of the cults could have up to three players in it.

That's...that's really silly. YOu really think a entire cult would out themsleves just to speedlynch you?

But fine, whatever,

unvote:Skruffs

Now, claim or die.

[Yosarian2]

Skruffs, you're completely missing the point here. I'm not sure if it's intentional or not, but I guess I'll spell it out for you.

THE SERIAL KILLER FAILED TO KILL LAST NIGHT.

Let me repeat that.

THE SERIAL KILLER FAILED TO KILL LAST NIGHT.

Now, are you starting to understand why I'm so intent on getting a full claim, both role and actions, out of someone who claimed yesterday that they "might" be the SK? If you're the SK, then that means you failed to kill last night, and probably means we REALLY need to find out who you targeted last night.

Besides which, in any case, it's pretty clearly in the best interests of the town to force the SK to claim today.

Anyway, I unvoted you. Didn't you promise you were going to claim if I did that, or were you just BSing me there?

Or, if you're a townie and can convince me of that, then we know mnowax is one of the cult members.

If you really are the SK, or if you're a townie, or if you were lying yesterday and are actually in the other cult, then you need to claim right now. Either way, you claiming is probably the best chance of us finding the other cult leader. So if you don't claim, I am going to have to assume you're the other cult leader, since that's the only situation where giving such a useless, ambiguas claim makes sense at this point, epsecally if you really think the other cult is so close to winning the game.

[Yosarian2]

Sure, I'll wait and see what mnowax has to say.

[Yosarian2]

Skruffs is not the SK, he is cult.

Is that a counterclaim, slysly?

[Yosarian2]

Ok.

-It looks like mnowax was town when he claimed he targeted Skruffs. He might still be town; his actions don't make a lot of sense as cult.

Looks like we have 2 real possibilities here.

-Skruffs is telling the truth and is SK, TSS is cult leader, SlySly is his recruit, and possibly the only one. (SlySly may or may not have origionally been the Inquisitor at the start of the game; dosn't really matter at this point, since Inquisitor is a recruitable role).

-SlySly is telling the truth and is still a pro-town inquisitor; between his claim and Mnowax's, that would mean Skruffs is the cult leader.

Ok, there's one easy way to solve this.

I WANT EVERYONE, RIGHT NOW, TO CLAIM SK OR NOT SK. IF THERE IS NO COUNTERCLAIM TO SKRUFF'S CLAIM, I WILL ASSUME HE IS TELLING THE TRUTH. IF I ASSUME THAT, THEN I WILL VOTE FOR TSS. SO IF YOU ARE THE SK AND YOU DO NOT CLAIM, RIGHT NOW, THEN THE WRONG GUY WILL GET LYNCHED AND SKRUFFS CULT WILL WIN. IF SKRUFFS IN NOT THE SK AND YOU ARE THE SK, THEN YOUR ONLY CHANCE OF NOT LOSING TODAY IS TO CLAIM SK, RIGHT NOW.

I am not the SK.

[Yosarian2]

The Silent Speaker has counter claimed as serial killer.

TSS: Are you claiming to be the real serial killer here?

[Yosarian2]

Yes. I suspect armlx tried to recruit me early on, based on an attitude shift toward me. That's one reason I shifted my attitude toward

him

.

Ok, then. If you are claiming SK, then please claim a list of all of your targets for each night of the game so far.

You seem remarkably sure that mnowax isn't cult. He hasn't killed yet, you know. Cult!mnowax explains that very nicely. But you don't want attention drawn to your recruit, do you?

If he was cult, how did he correctly guess that Skruffs is unkillable? Or are you suggesting he's cult WITH Skruffs??

I mean, he could be cult NOW, of course.

[Yosarian2]

Well, whatever. I'm going away for the weekend to Starkidum, so before I do, I'll put a

vote:The Silent Speaker

on. I've had a bad feeling about him for a while anyway.

[Yosarian2]

One interesting thing about TSS's last few posts is that he seems to know I'm town.

[Yosarian2]

EBWOP: It makes no difference to me whether you're pulling some cunning ploy or not, Yosarian; I can't very well expect Skruffs to change his vote, and I have mnowax labeled as cult too, so you're my best hope of not getting quicklynched when Beep gets back.

You think Skruffs and Mnowax are cult together? That dosn't really make any sense with yesterday, unless Mnowax got culted last night.

[Yosarian2]

You think Skruffs and Mnowax are cult together?

No, I think Skruffs and mnowax are cult oppositely.

How does that fit with this?

EBWOP: It makes no difference to me whether you're pulling some cunning ploy or not, Yosarian; I can't very well expect Skruffs to change his vote, and I have mnowax labeled as cult too, so you're my best hope of not getting quicklynched when Beep gets back.

If Mnowax was in the other cult, then one would think he would be especally interested in getting rid of the other cult leader. Plus that dosn't fit with the fact that Mnowax apparenlty correctly stated that Skruffs in unkillable; when do you think mnowax was recruited?

[Yosarian2]

Night 1 - my predecessor investigated Occult/Beep. result = not cult.

Night 2 - my predecessor investigated TSS. result = not cult.

Night 3 - I investigated Yosarian2. result = not cult.
Night 4 - I investigated Skruffs. result = cult.

Night 5 - I investigated mnowax. result = not cult.

Both of these results are impossible, because if, as you are trying ot push, TSS was the SK, you would not have received an investigation from him, as he is IMMUNE, and B, There is nobody in the game that he could have shot who would not have died after Mnowax shot me, if he were the SK and mnowax were the vig as he claimed day one.

I am not trying to 'convince' you to vote your cult leader, as I have said I Am most likely to shoot you tonight, so betraying your own side and then losing yourself doesn't leave you with any options. But how do you like knowing that your own fake claim wound up outing your boss even more?

Skruffs, immune to investigations usually means that they show up as innocent.

[Yosarian2]

TSS, I still think the most likely candidates for the other cult right now are you and sly. Mnowax is pretty clearly either town or Cerulean cult, and somehow I just don't see DGB saying "Yos or Skruffs should die" if Skruffs was her cult leader since there was a lot of pressure on him at the time. I just can't see anyone as likely being in a cult that has Skruffs as a cult leader at this point in time.

[Yosarian2]

Bump.

TSS, anything else to say? Not long ago, you were all paniced and trying to get me to change my mind...and yet you haven't said anything since I explained why I'm suspicious of you.

Or how about you, sly? You have any logical argument that might convince me you're telling the truth and TSS are town?

Is everyone just lurking, waiting for DGB to come in, to see what she'll do?

[Yosarian2]

Ok. Mnowax is almost certanly Cerulean, since he didn't kill last night. Slysly (Stark) is Fuschia, obv, and Skruffs is the SK. I'm pretty sure I'm the last townie.

There's no way I can win at this point, since a 1/1 endgame with anyone is a town loss, so I have to play for the tie. Skruffs, the way I see it, I've got two options here. Either we lynch you today and I go for a happily-ever-after tommorow for a 3 way tie with me and the 2 cult members, or we no-lynch today and, if Skruffs dosn't kill, we go right into a happily-ever-after 4 way tie.

vote:No lynch

Skruffs: Here's the deal. You no-kill from now on, and we have a nice, happy, 4 way tie. If you kill someone tonight, then the other two people lynch you tommorow (they have no choice, really, since otherwise you win) and you lose. You willing to work with us here?

[Yosarian2]

Oh, I might as well claim now since it dosn't matter anymore, I'm the unrecruitable townie. I'm pretty sure both cults already know that; day 2 I was pretty sure Mnowax was trying so hard to get me lynched was because his cult leader tried to recruit me and failed, and half the reason I was so suspicious of TSS was that from several of his posts I got the impression he already knew I was unrecrutable, and so I think he tried to recruit me as well.

[Yosarian2]

Mnowax: I have a lot of trouble believing you here. Why would you kill Beep, who had just hammered the Fucia cult leader, instead of SlySly (who was obveously cult) or Skruffs (who was clearly the biggest single threat to the town after both cult leaders were dead)?

[Yosarian2]

Dosn't matter, mnowax. If you had killed Skruffs yesterday, after we hammered the cult leader, town would certanly have won, no matter if Beep was town or cult; 2 town, 1 Fucia cult, 1 cerulean cult is pretty much a guarentted town win, especally since even if the two cult member just keep no-lynching you could have eventually killed them both (one in two days, the other one in two more days). If you were pro-town, that would have pretty obveously been the correct move; even Skruffs knew that yesterday.

As it is, you have not made a single confirmed kill all game, and your claimed kill targets haven't made any sense from a pro-town perspective, so I'm afraid I just can't believe you here.

[Yosarian2]

Mnowax: Unless you can either convince me you're town, or admit to being cult and suggest some other way we can arrange for a tie, that's not really an option.

So, again; even if you thought Beep Beep was cerulean cult, why did you think killing her would be a good idea? How would killing her help the town win in that situation?

[Yosarian2]

Hmm.

unvote

Ok. I still think there's a good chance you're lying, but considering beep really might have been keeping you town, it's possible you're telling the truth. So, here's the new deal.

Today, we lynch Skruffs.

Tommorow and the next day, we no-lynch. If you are cerulean. you do NOT want to backstab me on this one and try to lynch me tommorow instead; if you do, I swear I will vote for you and let Stark win the game rather then get lynched.

That way, if you really are the vig, then on the second day you can kill Stark and town wins. If you're a lying cultie, then you won't be able to vig, and it'll still be a happier-ever-after tie.

Do we have a deal, mnowax?

[Yosarian2]

vote:Skruffs

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian2: You should unvote me. The two cults can have a tied win by voting you tomorrow; there is no reason to do a happily ever after. They do not need you.

Well, yes, except that if mnowax votes me tommorow, I will vote him back, and then Stark (who replaced SlySly), will lynch him and win and mnowax will lose. I don't see why mnowax would take that chance, if he is cult. And if he's cult, I'm still confused about how he knew you were unkillable; do you have a theory for that, skruffs?

[Yosarian2]

Um...wtf, mnowax?

[Yosarian2]

The plan right now is we lynch the SK, which is confirmed to be Skruffs, then tommorow and from then on we no-lynch; if anyone tries to vote me instead tommorow, I vote them in response and let the other cult win.

[Yosarian2]

No one's going to give you the "win", Skruffs. I might not be able to win this game, but one way or the other, I'm not going to lose it, unless someone is willing to lose the game in order to also make me lose it.

Mod: What are your deadline rules?

[Yosarian2]

Ok, so it's up to you, Stark. If you vote no-lynch and stick to it, then we no lynch, and we're just trusting Skruffs to not kill someone (probably one of you two, since if he kills me the two cultists just lynch him and tie) and screw everything up. Or, if you vote Skruffs, then it's a lynch, and the three of us can no-lynch forever starting tommorow. It's your call.

[Yosarian2]

i have the feeling i just got played.

Not by me.

Ok, so like I said, this is the deal. Tommorow, we no lynch. If either of you vote me instead of voting no lynch, I will vote you back, and the other guy will win. Ok?

[Yosarian2]

vote:No lynch

[Yosarian2]

Wooo! Town win! (high-fives Mnowax)

Heh...dispite all that, mnowax, you managed to convince me that you might actually somehow still be town two days ago despite all the evidence to the contrary, and that got me to take the risk and play for the town win. Good job. Next, just work on your vig target picking skills.

[Yosarian2]

Mnowax: He tried to; I turned him down when I figured out you might actually be town.

Anyway, why did you think I was cult? Shouldn't it have been obveous that I was town, after I played a major role in lynching both cult leaders?

[Yosarian2]

Lol. You thought I was

Cerulean

? When I started going after Armlx day 3, and helped him get lynched on day 4?

Man...I've tried some crazy gambits in the past, but bussing my own cult leader on day 3 and 4 while the other cult leader was still at large?

Oh well. All's well that ends well. Good game, everyone.

By the way, sorry I didn't go for that tie, Skruffs; you did really well in a difficult position, but when I realized I had a chance for a town win, I had to go for it.

[Yosarian2]

Skruffs: The timing dosn't matter, the mod wasn't using those kind of deadline rules.

If you'd been right, then killing one of that cult might have been your best move, since in a 1v1v1v1 endgame, I probably would have gone for a draw. It was just mnowax being town, and me semi-beliving him, that cost you the game; otherwise it was a good plan.

[Yosarian2]

I didn't target you, Nab. I can only assume armlx thought you were unrecruitable for some reason. That was the night I recruited Sly.

I actually targeted Yosarian twice -- once n1, when I was blocked, and once n5. When I think that virtually any other choice I could have made that night would have led to me winning...

(nods) Yeah, I kept the fact that I was unrecruitable very close to my chest for as long as I could.

Actually, your best bet there would probably have been to kill me instead of trying to recruit me. With a SK, the possibily of members of the other cult, the possibiliy of an unrecruitable townie, and an alarmist left, that probably would have been a safer move, and you would have been in a much stronger position.

[Yosarian2]

I'm not seeing Skruffs as scum.

Oh, and CKD is scum... again!!!

Armlx is not scum in this game.

at least I learned something in this game.

I'm never going to look for scum again. I'm just going to sheepishly bandwagon.

Eh...you chose right when it really counted and helped us lynch TSS. Even though you incorrectly suspected me (as usual ), you were reasonable and read the thread carefully, and were willing to change your mind; if you hadn't chose correctly then and helped us lynch TSS, he almost certanly would have won.