MKM II GAME OVER
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ortolan Mafia Scum
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populartajo (45) wrote:First of all, I want everybody thoughts of this. Thats why I asked.
The other game, we had a situation to prevent name massclaim. Princess Peach could get captured by scum giving them an autowin if they could keep her for a night with no killing Bowser.
Now we dont have it and I strongly believe that Lawrencelot put the good guys in a side and the bad guys in the other, like in the other game.
Its also possible he gave scum fakeclaims, but Im sure not all scum got believable ones. Source, the previous game again.Lawrencelot (0) wrote:13) Mass-claiming is allowed, but not recommended.Vote: populartajo
You wouldn't happen to be a scum-punisher (against mass-claim) role now would you? I find it rather hard to believe an experienced player would not be aware that mass-claiming in these sorts of themed setups is rarely a good idea, especially when faced with an experienced mod andespeciallywhen there is a rule especially advising against mass-claiming.
I don't understand why you push the issue in 54 after AM and Gorrad spelling out why it's a bad idea, and dislike the excessive sensitivity in response to being voted by AM and qwints, in 62 and 68.-
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ortolan Mafia Scum
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I meant to do this a few days ago but
Unvote
Vote: Gorrad
This came across as unconvincing. I strongly suspected from the get-go I was actually town rather than a traitor role- there's several indications that this is the case. I also don't understand your thought process in voting/FoSing these players. You don't think zwet is scum because scum would know that the bad guys are the uninformed majority, but how does this make them scummy for voting for him?Gorrad (128) wrote:...HA! Lawrencelot pulled a Space Monkey on us! I completely fell for it, too. I thought I was scum.
Mod: NICE one
As much as I hate to say it, Zwet's in the clear this game. Mafia would know that the Army was the uninformed and therefore NOT make that slip. Town that thought they were scum? That's right up their alley.
Unvote, Vote: AceMarksman
FoS: Shinnen_no_Me
And I don't like the fishing in 135:
The only reason it would be useful to further discuss his role would be if his lynch was likely and it was claim time. His lynch wasn't going to happen at that point in time though. I also don't like how sure of yourself you seem here when his "mistake" wasn't necessarily scummy.Gorrad (135) wrote:
A quick glance at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_enemies combined with my own knowledge of Galaxy, means that there are only a handful of roles that fit. I still don't buy it.AceMarksman wrote:More clarification: the mario game I spend most of my time on is Galaxy, and my role has an older baddie in it which doesn't get much facetime in Galaxy I'm afraid.
How do you know they couldn't have inferred or simply queried with the mod whether they were in fact town? And if you assume that the Mushroom Kingdom know they're the informed majority, why might they not also be informed of the fact that Bowser's Army don't actually know that they are town to begin with? If this is the case then is potentially a pointGorrad (139) wrote:I thought I was scum, as my role was a Mario Baddy. I was wrong. I expect most townies to, like me, not have understood at first that they were town due to Bowser's Army traditionally being the bad guys. Therefore I suspect you and Ace, as y'all assumed that every townie knew they were such, despite the fact that the flavor is counter-intuitive.
To clarify why I thought I was scum despite being uninformed, I basically thought I was a traitor-type role. AKA one with a scum win condition who is uninformed.forAM and Shinnen being town.
I don't like this either. Seems like she's trying to avoid stepping on Gorrad's toes while aiming for zwet the easy target.Shinnen (146) wrote:Exactly. The town will always (or well, who knows, so let's say usually) be the uninformed majority. The flavour has nothing to do with this. However, I want to believe for now that Gorrad really thought that he was one of the bad guys. In the other hand, Zwet's slip is just too big to ignore. However, taking into account the item list the mod posted, there's also a chance that he belongs to a third party, thus why the surprise. One way or another, I'm happy with my vote.
I would assume the scum know at least as much as the town do, including how much knowledge town have about whether they're really town or not.caf (147) wrote:We can assume that scum would know that Bowser's army is town and so wouldn't make any obvious mistakes, but assuming there is a DK and a Wario in the game they could still have been caught out by it. Therefore I dont think we can wholly confirm Zwet at this point.
Empking's vote on Gorrad is well-justified (it's for similar reasons to mine really).
Not sure I like this too much. A game where our factions/win cons changed entirely after day 1 is bastard modish and also renders the entirety of day 1 pointless or an exercise in culling a few extra people before the proper start of the game. Our abilities are "interesting" thoughMoratorium (167) wrote:Also, I have this creepy feeling that we wake up Day 2 and find out that this isn't Scum-is-Town and Town-is-Scum, but instead this is just some quasi-random "Day 1 with the lights out!" and suddenly we all recognize each other again and only then does the true informed minority get established with more role PM's and whatever...
After having just outed ourselves voluntarily on Day 1.
Nightmare scenarios. Sad
I still really dislike Gorrad's attempts to pin people as scum based on "role behaviour". Again I've no doubt the scum would be well-warned in advance of how to fit in and act townie- it would simply be unbalanced otherwise. This makes me more suspicious of Gorrad actually.Gorrad (171) wrote:Y'see, this is what I have against Ace. He wasn't at all confused by his role, and automatically assumed no one else would be. AND he didn't recognise his role, supposedly, as a Mario baddy. Personally, I find that nigh-impossible unless he has a named villain (I find this unlikely due to the deaths of most of said named villains in MKMI, AKA Bowser, Baby Bowser, and Drybones. There aren't many left).
I highly doubt it. No practical way of doing it, game-breaking so presumably the mod has measures against it etc.pt (178) wrote:Wait a second.
We have items that only Bowser's Army know how they work.
Can we massively confirm people with this?
True. By paraphrasing the effects. Technically we would do something really lame like "what is the seventh letter in the description for this item" but I don't think that will be treated kindly by the mod,SK (184) wrote: I would say we can possibly confirm 4 people.amirite, mod?
Very good point which I thought of as well. The interesting thing about this, though, is that (possibly ) at least one of the items seems to be rendered useless or at least much less useful if one's enemy knows what it does (whichMoratorium (190) wrote:So is the assumption here that basically Law didn't put anything in the scum role pm's that says "Hey, by the way, in case town tries this tactic, here's the list of items that town can buy and their powers"?
(started taking a shower, and this thought came to me)maysuggest they can't know what our items do).
ok, scratch that then.AM (194) wrote:No, because there are some roles, like mine, that aren't allowed to buy items.
Nah I'm actually getting increasingly against this idea. If scumcaf (195) wrote:Item questioning seems like a good tactic currently, if we can think up enough questions to make it work. Even if we do end up with a few players claiming not to have been given knowledge of the items, we can just separate them off first and then question everyone else. It's probably not enough to nail scum on its own but it'll give us info.doknow what the items do already then we're heavily shooting ourselves in the foot. I'm convinced Lawrencealot wouldn't allow us to catch scum in this manner.
Agree with Shinnen's 203.
Second to claim this after someone's already cleared the way = still consistent with being scum.Gorrad (204) wrote:I'm fine with item claims to reduce the pool somewhat. However, as I too cannot purchase items (and therefore do not know what they do), I'm willing toUnvote: Ace. I don't think that scum would know that there were roles that had that particular twist.
This is the second time tajo has role/itemfished, and in a different manner to the first time. Strongly considering moving my vote back onto him.populartajo (236) wrote:Its a risk we should take.
But do you think we wont find scum in this exercise?
I am not telling you whether I have item descriptions or not.
A lot of this (especially the first sentence) don't follow at all to me.SK (260) wrote:I'm guessing that the presence of the fireflower and barrel cannon mean that the scum have to *buy* their ability to kill. I have no idea what the motorcycle could be as I've never played any Wario games. The banana could be a roleblock power (that's all I can think of that a banana would do). The mushroom might make the scum harder to kill (like you had to get hit twice as super mario to die). The 1-up could create some kind of resurrection, so we had better watch the endgame. It would suck if we were at lylo and mario resurrected luigi who got lynched day 2. The only thing I've come up with for the star is invulnerability.-
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ortolan Mafia Scum
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This is an entirely different game. Outguessing the mod on number of scum factions and third parties at this stage in the game is just silly (Especially because the first game was considered biased towards town, wasn't it?).tajo (265) wrote:a) We definitely have roles more important than others, however these are not pretty different the one from the other aside from number of coins and voting abilities. In last game, we had Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, etc and a bunch of Toads (vanilla townies). However, EVERY role can become a pain in the ass with the right plan and items. I was a confirmed Toad last time and we managed to rape scum ass with gamebreaking strategies.
b) Last time, we had 1 mafia group (Bowser's Army), 2 anti-town third partys coin stealers with different win conditions (DK and Wario) and 1 town. Its very probable we are facing the same scenario.
I can also think of many circumstances where scum could glean much simply by knowing who can buy items and who can't.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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ortolan Mafia Scum
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I do not know, as I am not scum.tajo (278) wrote:Make a stance, do you think scum have items description in their PMs or nor?
Actually, it goes both ways. For all we know the most powerful town roles may be among those who can't buy items.Shinnen (289) wrote:Saying who can use and who can't use items just creates a list to the scum of who NOT to kill during nights, as they, likely, represent less of a threat than those players that can actually use items.
I am reconsidering item-claiming. Either scum already know what our items do (in which case this will be useless, but therefore we're not actually revealing anything to them), or they don't know what they do and thus may get caught out. The other problem is that either way, we won't know whether the people who claimed no items are scum or town anyway.
I would ask if you go ahead that you don't ask questions about the most expensive because that could seriously diminish its effectiveness.-
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ortolan Mafia Scum
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"You are scum because you refuse to know the content of scum role pms"
I have no way of determining what's in their pms and cannot look to the first game for help, where the abilities were shared. I have however told you what the claim is likely to bring in both eventualities, and implicitly participated in it also.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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um...wouldn't it be a better idea just to use this when we're about to lynch someone? Then we can confirm if scummy behaviour = or doesn't = knowledge of item costs and then verify with a scumflip. I will read up to date very soon.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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Shadow Knight (492) wrote:@tajo- yeah, after rereading and paying close attentioni to ortolan, I'm gonna have to go with a
unvote, vote ortolan
He's made a lot of statements that just rub me the wrong way. Its nothing I can really articulate, but my gut feels good with this.Unvote
Vote: ShadowKnight
ShadowKnight is scum guys, we can lynch him now. That's my work done for today.-
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ortolan Mafia Scum
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1) When did I say I had no item descriptions?populartajo (516) wrote:
Obv not scumhunting.ort wrote:While this is the main focus of the gamethere's not much else to do nowis there (although I will admit being busy has also impacted on my ability to contribute to this and other games).
If I were a townie with no item descriptions, Ill be rereading the thread to evaluate reactions, thinlking who feels more town and such.
What does ortolan do?
Complot against the plan.
I think ortolan is a extremely healthy D1 lynch. I can go with shadowknight too.
2) I am scumhunting. I am voting scum (ShadowKnight), if you didn't notice.
3) What are your reasons for wanting me (or ShadowKnight???) lynched?
I'm sorry, I forgot that opposing a mass-claim is a 100% accurate scum-tell.pt (517) wrote:The implicat part evaluates people in a more "mafia" way. That means that we have to evaluate reactions to the current situations. With that part of the plan I think ort is very likely scum and that Mora is very likely town.
After all, we are playing mafia, right?
*Yawn*AM (600) wrote:I think our next step should be killing off the non-list player who has been drawing the most suspicion. If I'm not mistaken, that person is ortolan, right?-
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ortolan Mafia Scum
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I do have a bit of meta-info that pt has a habit of trying to break mechanics/ask for mass-claims in several games, so I'm not necessarily positing it as a scum-tell here. I am of the opinion that this whole exercise was quite a waste of time however. The idea of lynching from the non-claimed-items group relies on the assumption that firstly scum don't know the item descriptions, and secondly that the strongest town power-roles are more and not less likely to be able to buy items. Neither of these are wise to make at all.-
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ortolan Mafia Scum
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Seeing as we're approaching deadline and I seem to have 5 votes on me, you may ask me a question about the items, I do in fact have the descriptions and have no intention of being another deadline lynch driven by scum as per Election Mafia. I will note that populartajo has effectively prevented any genuine attempt at scum-hunting today with his "plan".Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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I will also note that if populartajo continues to suspect me after I correctly answer a question about the items, this will amount to an acknowledgement that his plan was useless to begin with (because this will imply that, I, as scum, in fact do have the descriptions, and this method is totally ineffective at distinguishing town from scum).Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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Psst, guys, I'm pretty sure Gorrad is scum too. Until he elaborates (4 lines or more on what exactly differs about me between the games) it looks highly likely.Gorrad (661) wrote:WAY different from the Orlotan in Election Mafia.
I love games where I can just point right at the scum because they're the ones voting me with blatantly crap/no reasons. Town failed to listen to me in Election Mafia at their peril (Gorrad of all people should know this).Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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ortolan Mafia Scum
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Yer that's definitely lynch-worthy. Gorrad is more obv-scum though, because I haven't played with this guy before.SK (679) wrote:@Whomever- how would you like me to explain? Sometimes, the little hairs on the back of my nect stand up when I read something. And considering that ortolan hasn't posted any porn, he's my vote at present.
Soooo, why do you want me to answer a second question now (especially as obviously an anti-town one as that)?tajo (683) wrote:Ort, how about you answer this question.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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If you're going to ask the questions you should definitely pay more attention and avoid coming up with ambiguous ones. The poison shroom is not one, however if you read the text of the first and second items, the text of the second item implies that this applies to the first item (as well as the last one)caf19 (694) wrote:
That's not what I make it. Either you are scum or misunderstood the question, which is possible because it is slightly open to interpretation. Perhaps this will help: Is the poison shroom one of the 'two' in your answer?ortolan wrote:twoCurrently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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EBWOP: the fact that it applies to the last one is not implied by the second one but by the last one's own content. Either way, the answer is in fact two with close reading.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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That is not a good reason, at all, is blatantly contradicted by my scum meta (which I also pointed out in Election Mafia, when thisGorrad (711) wrote:Ortolan, in Election Mafia you posted long posts full of specific quotes and reasoning. Reasoning that I did not agree with, but reasoning nonetheless. Here you have, with some exceptions, short posts with very little reasoning.exactsame accusation came up, and indeed earlier in this game, when, again, thisexactsame accusation came up:
AM (505) wrote:I've noticed something about your play, ort. In all the other games i've seen you in, your posts are very long and post large and well thought-out cases. Here, you're lurking and not making an effort to make a case. I find this suspicious.
So, basically, come up with something better scumbag. I would rather lynch you than he, because I have played with you before and prefer to lynch the scum you know than the scum you don't, but he is also desirable.ortolan (511) wrote:I'm highly offended you think I'm dumb enough for this "tell" to have any merit whatsoever. I've been effectively mislynched (forced to claim cop in Election Mafia) before for similar reasons (and it was a very, very scum-driven wagon IIRC).
The same things are happening in this game as were when I last posted- tajo is pursuing a mass-claim plan of which I am somewhat unsure of the motivations (taking time out to direct suspicion at me because I am skeptical that an obvious plan which relies on the mod not foreseeing it will help us). While this is the main focus of the game there's not much else to do now is there (although I will admit being busy has also impacted on my ability to contribute to this and other games).
And when ShadowKnight makes a post like that I am not going to indulge him by beating around the bush and suggesting it's rather the sort of a thing a mafioso would do, I am going to vote him, because he is obv-scum. You should be commending me for voting a scumbag and joining the wagon, not bringing in a shallow and incorrect meta argument.-
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and ironically that accusation was actually partly the reason I was "lynched" in Election Mafia, so how you can say my play differs in this game and therefore makes me scum is beyond me.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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If you say that one version of an item cannot be redirected, then this implies that the other version can
Some people very much need grey matter, or need to stop being scum, and unvote me.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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^^ it is blatantly obvious I know what bowser's castle items descriptions are. I have made copious references to them
Both semioldguy and populartajo were in fact amusingly wrong about the bomb question, also, which makes me laugh @ their attempts to confirm people. Neither of their answers were correct.
a. First person you give it to Nop (559) wrote:Which of the following can trigger the Bob-omb:
a. First person you give it to No
b. Number of times given No
c. Triggered by voting No
d. Holding or not holding another item No
e Passing it to certain player(s) No
f. Time elapsed No
g. Number of players passed to Yes
h. Bob-omb cannot be triggered (only used) No
i. None of the above
b. Number of times given Yes
c. Triggered by voting No
d. Holding or not holding another item No
e Passing it to certain player(s) No
f. Time elapsed Yes
g. Number of players passed to No
h. Bob-omb cannot be triggered (only used) No
i. None of the above
Now, those (previously) voting me need to clarify if it is due to being scum or the aforementioned reason of lacking grey matter. I'd say the split is probably 4/1 or 3/2 at present (how am I a more appealing lynch than ShadowKnight exactly???? Thankfully the redirection of votes to another player, me, fornoreason makes my read on ShadowKnight even more likely to be correct.)
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? I will enjoy telling you, why you're wrong, after the game. The answer is two. Read your role pm again.caf19 (735) wrote:That's not the part of your reasoning I found to be wrong...
No, I'm not, especially not after this post. Either way I've blatantly proven I have the item descriptions. I'm not indulging incompetent play (not from you specifically).pt (736) wrote:You are going to send me a letter tonight with the value of "x" where "x" is the times the bomb can be passed without triggering. Everyone agrees with this?-
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tajo- I do not wish to tie up my potential night action sending you a letter. Please ask me another question in-thread, or lay off. It is not my fault that both questions that have been asked of me have had no thought put into them and as a result one or two people seem to be suggesting I may not have the item descriptions.
For reference, who feels I need to answer another question (because it seems to mainly be tajo still going on about it.)?
If you are town also I don't see why it's desirable to waste one of your coins.
Also, re: the wincon stuff- did the scum get told the town wincon in the last mushroom kingdom game?-
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Depending on ShadowKnight's flip, tajo's reactions should be noted.
Here he suggests that because the flavour ispt (765) wrote:
I think scum have fakeclaims in this game also. When did I say they didnt?qwints wrote:
What makes you think scum wouldn't have fake claims in this game. If that's the case, why would flavor clear SK?populartajo wrote:
Take in count that scum got fakeclaims in the another game.
Until now, Im leaning to believe the claim for flavor reasons.
And I think the flavor clears SK. It feels a belieavable role (almost a generic role with protection) and not one coming from a fakeclaim, since those usually are a little more elaborate.notoverly complex, he is inclined to believe the fakeclaim.
Then, subsequently, when SK comes up with a far more elaborate fake-claim, tajo continues with the line that he is not suspicious.SK (786) wrote:I am a bubble goomba.
I will survive the first kill an invader hits me with, but it will pop my bubble and make me a normal goomba.
Certain attacks* will kill me outright
I have 1 coin.
I am unable to buy items.
Night 4 I "land" and my bubble pops regardless.
SK: which attacks kill you outright and did you find this out from your role pm or from further discussions/questions to the mod about your role?
I also disapprove of tajo attempting to redirect votes to another player as a result, solely because of their "lurking" (on day one).-
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If you think it is anti-town to reveal that in case of instructing scum how to kill similar roles to your own (and in fact are actually town), then fair enough.SK (865) wrote:@Ortolan- I'm not claiming what attacks kill me outright simply because you want to know.
Otherwise though, I can't see why you wouldn't answer. You are going to die anyway...Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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Hello friends.
I shall refrain from any "I told you sos" at this stage.
Gorrad still looks like a good target to me. His 858 is perfectly consistent with being a last minute bus. Starting today by voting a "jumped in" player is also interesting when the mechanic was made clear before the game even started- what is intrinsically scummy about jumping in?
sirdanilot would do well to answer his question however.
tajo, now as I said yesterday tajo did tell us he had a "gut belief" in SK's claim which didn't seem to have much basis. And as I pointed out in 864, his justification for believing the claim was contradictory. Plus he tried to redirect votes to another wagon, Looker's, solely on the basis of "lurking", which is a very weak justification for a day one wagon, especially when one compares it to the now flipped-scum SK wagon. That said I do not think he is scummy alone for the suggestion of mass-claiming. I also don't think I've seen him as scum before which makes reading him all the more difficult.
I note he is again voting Looker for lurking.
No comment.tajo (902) wrote:Can you explain why did you find out ortolan very rational?
906- Gorrad still being very aggressive toward sirdanilot.
Is it just me or are all of Gorrad's reasons for attacking people really weak? Especially Moratorium, probably the most pro-town player in this game so far. Why exactly is it scummy to speculate on night-kills exactly, especially, when, as you say, we're trying to work out how the apparent two extra factions fit into the game?Gorrad (908) wrote:Or hey, how about the fact that Castle folks win when all three non-Castle groups are dead? AKA three anti-town factions. AKA more than one anti-town NK.
Now be quiet, commenting on NKs is scummy. I'd vote for you if I wasn't voting for Sirdanilot. Backing up this is Bleach Mafia with Seraphim as well as Random Mafia 3 with UROE.
Errrrrr......? And you think this is plausible why exactly?WeyounsLastClone (912) wrote: That said, maybe quints actually was Bowser's Army, but a special power made him look like Mushroom Kingdom (although his after death reaction would be a bit strange in that regard). It would also explain why qwints could answer an item question.
This argument is invalid. A sample size of two does not a scum-tell make. Furthermore we have entirely different circumstances. Contrary to expectations, we had one scum die night one, with no other deaths. We are also trying to work out where the other two apparent factions fit in the game. How can you scum-hunt without some speculation about how many scum factions/killing-roles there are. And how exactly do you foresee Moratorium speculating about the setup being likely to out a doctor?Gorrad (918) wrote:The first one had Seraphim-scum lynched, the second had UROE-scum lynched. Both cases started with nightkill commentary, and in both games the scumminess of nightkill-commentary was brought up by yours truely. What does speculation gain? Nothing. What can it lose? An outted doctor.
semioldguy can you explain what 925 means in practice for those of us not well acquainted with the first game.
STATISTICS FAILGorrad (954) wrote:You did it, you were town. UROE and Seraphim did it, they were scum. 2/3 is still a trend.
LOL. I know I've never seen you as scum but this is so dumb it's worth lynching you for alone.tajo (967) wrote:My scumhunting powers say that Looker and ortolan should be the next people dying in this game.
See, yesterday, while you were voting me for opposing a mass-claim plan as being useless which has since turned out to be...useless, I was busy catching scum. At the last minute, you tried to redirect from the scum's wagon, to someone else's (Looker), on the sole basis of "lurking". Additionally your reasoning for believing the scum's claim was contradictory (it was both too simple to be a fake-claim, and later too in-depth).
And your rationale for wanting me lynched today, apart from being incredibly pro-town, is???
Vote: poptajo
I'll leave Gorrad alone until sirdanilot answers his questions.-
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the thing with tajo is I'm willing up to a point to discount his OMGUSy behaviour towards me just as resentment to me opposing his mass-claim plan. If he is town then yesterday his behaviour towardsME(not necessarily other people) is possibly excusable.
But him being town and attacking me again today is just bizarre. Not only have my initially unpopular opinions on the mass-claim plan being vindicated (yet he has now changes his story to say that only scum would have known the mass-claim plan was useless, a classic example of trying to twistwhateverI do into having scummy motivations. Note that I had Inothad the item descriptions, and opposed the (useless) plan as I did, I would almost certainly have been lynched.
The other fact is the whole reason I votedSKwas thathevotedmefor a crap reason to begin with (which further makes busing an implausible scenario). Objectively I cannot see how a town player could come to the conclusion that I am a "good" lynch target after everything that took place on day one. Furthermore he justifies his stance on me as little more than "gut".
And some select replies:
Actually someone told me you have a meta of mass-claim requests, so in fairness to you I had to change the mere fact alone of your mass-claim request this game to a null-tell.tajo (982) wrote:Flase again. You did when you tried to get me lynched in D1. Try again.
- Your first point is that he didn't make a promised post i.e. lurking.tajo (982) wrote:False.
My case on Looker in 832 is not solely "lurking".
You think Looker is town, ort?populartajo wrote: Case on Looker, posted in Lurking.
Promised a post but havent done so.
His first post of the game was a vote for Shadow Knight showing a bizarre connection with the Ort-SK dilemma, evne though he hadnt finished reading the thread then.
Playing the retard card, even though I know Looker is not retarded.
His predecesor, Shinnen, comploted against the plan and refused to colaborate.
- In and of itself, voting for scum is definitely not a scum-tell.
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LOLKast (1000) wrote:Fourth point- I'm in an ongoing game with Looker, and based on his play there and what I read of his play here, I disagree with your assertion that he is not retarded.
- Opposing a now proven-useless plan is not a scumtell.
So, basically, I see no evidence Looker is scum.
In your case we have your mass-claiming plan, which is now proven to be a null-tell as we have reports you have advocated it before as scum, as well as the fact it has been proven to be ineffective.
We also have you redirecting votes from a now-flipped scum wagon (and we know what a reliable scum-tell that is don't we Kast) onto someone else, who as I said above, I don't see you as having valid reasons for suspecting.
Additionally, I do want to revisit why you apparently found SK's claim plausible. I'm not sure I've been entirely clear with my point here:
Here he says that fakeclaims are usuallytajo (765) wrote:I think scum have fakeclaims in this game also. When did I say they didnt?
And I think the flavor clears SK. It feels a belieavable role (almost a generic role with protection) and not one coming from a fakeclaim, since those usually are a little more elaborate.moreelaborate i.e. he is convinced by the claim on the basis of its simplicity.
Yet after SK posts this, something far more elaborate, tajo is still convinced of his towniness. Additionally this contains wierd information like "Night 4 I land". Why would that even be in a role pm? And re: 988, I disagree that "goomba in a bubble" is not an "elaborate role claim" in the later sense you referred to. I can't even remember any games where goombas started in bubbles...ShadowKnight (786) wrote:I am a bubble goomba.
I will survive the first kill an invader hits me with, but it will pop my bubble and make me a normal goomba.
Certain attacks* will kill me outright
I have 1 coin.
I am unable to buy items.
Night 4 I "land" and my bubble pops regardless.
When re-reading I also noticed this:
Are you going to elaborate on this, tajo?tajo (826) wrote:
Yes, you too.zwetschenwasser wrote:Looker is suspicious?
This was the main point I was trying to get across with my "STATISTICS FAIL" comment.Kast (1011) wrote:-Anecdotally relating two games in which nightkill commentary was part of the reason that scum were lynched does not prove that it is a valid tool for scumhunting.-
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I strongly disagree that tajo is an easy target. He is getting nowhere near the number of votes I'd like for exactly the same reason SK got lynched.caf19 (991) wrote:I'm not really a fan of the tajo wagon, he's too much of an easy target. (and so is zwet, you might respond, except that nobody is going after zwet...)
He is continually saying things to the effect of:
I know for a fact he doesn't use such poor (well actually, non-existent) reasoning when town and therefore I still see a strong indication he is scum. I'm also entirely sure he's familiar with the mafia dictum that saying you have an opinion on someone solely because of "gut" is brazenly scummy because it prevents you having to justify exactly why you find someone scummy, thereby avoiding accountability for your actions.tajo (998) wrote:Ortolan just feels off and Im pretty sure he is scum.
Which post was this and who did he point to?Mora (1005) wrote:A flipped scum attempted to paint four particular players as scum very early on in the game, just as a passing comment. As there's little reason to bus so many scumbuddies that early, I would tend to believe those four players are more townie on average, based on that statement.
I am thinking I may have been somewhat tunnelly towards Gorrad. I too would definitely like some contribution from sirdanilot. The act of insisting sirdanilot tell us why he's here is itself not scummy (I think I reacted to the vote moreso). As Kast points out, he may have a bit of a kooky meta.
It only caught scum insofar as it created an atmosphere of general town-fail where SK thought he could slip in and vote me for bad reasons. Unfortunately, it backfired. The actual thing that caught scum was the bandwagon against him started by Moratorium and boosted by me and all the other wagoners.tajo (1019) wrote:I agree it failed to confim townies but it didnt fail to catch scum, ya know?
zwet's argument that SK deliberately claimed not to have the item descriptions, then get lynched in order to validate tajo's plan is clearly retarded. For a start tajo didn't even want to get the scumbag lynched, he wanted to get me lynched (then Looker LuL). Just because this argument is crap though does not preclude zwet being correct in that tajo is scum.
zwet clearly did try to cite an ongoing game which was disallowed by the mod. I think articulacy is holding him back here, hence having to rely on Mora's portrayal of his case. I do not think he is scum. ~Argh as of the last page I am revisiting this due to the retarded-even-for-zwet claim that tajo is scum for describing the Wario role to him. More on zwet later.
Please elucidate on this.Kast (1057) wrote:I'm getting a mixed but mostly pro-town read on Tajo.
Here he goes again. Compare to SK's "Hehe I got a bit of gut-read on ortolan here, but nothing I can put my finger on", or words to that effect. Do you notice any similarities between tajo and the already flipped scummy-wummy?tajo (1058) wrote: Look, ort is off, relaly off and Im not sure why some people are missing this. I hope that as the game progresses, people are going to realize this.
I think WeyounsLastClone may also be trying to signpost the fact he himself is scum in 1064.
Nice equivocating and trying to paint both of them as scummy simultaneously.WeyounsLastClone (1064) wrote:At first I found Gorrad a bit overanxious to hear from sirdan, but now his silence is a bit awkward (not that I have posted much, but I think it's different from someone who joined from outside the game). Still, I find Gorrad's reactions a bit off.
You suspect he is a third party...yet you don't like his wagon???WeyounsLastClone (1064) wrote:I don't think tajo is from the Mushroom Kingdom, and I don't really like his wagon. Somehow I suspect him to be Wario or something.
I simply disagreed with caf19 but I don't at all see this interpretation here. Opposing a wagon in lieu of another one does not mean you're "relying on the former flipping town in order to line up the second one as a lynch". This part of WLC's post is not as scummy as it is bizarre.WeyounsLastClone (1064) wrote:
Feels a bit like if tajo pops up town, he can say 'i told you so', and then go after zwet. He rubbed me wrong day 1 too, but I can't pinpoint exactly what. Hope to do a reread this weekend.caf19 wrote:I know about his meta and the shallow waters blah blah, but seriously, zwet is scummy. Now that he's not 'confirmed' anymore , I can't help but note that he is 'playing up' to his meta. He is tunneling with woefully inadequate reasoning, purposefully exaggerating the aggressiveness and dumbness of his posts in order that people will go 'oh, it's just zwet being zwet'. And it seems to be working - a decent wagon is building up on tajo. I'm not really a fan of the tajo wagon, he's too much of an easy target. (and so is zwet, you might respond, except that nobody is going after zwet...)
His 989 also struck me as useless.
Childish = childish scum or childish town, or are you just active lurking?WeyounsLastClone (989) wrote:
OMGUS much? I agree that the votes on you are kind of unwarranted, but immediately switching to ortolan after he votes you feels a bit childish.populartajo wrote:A weak attack coming for zwet is understandable but a weak attack coming for a player I respect only means one thing.
I will answer every accusation you brought to the table, ort. Until you eat your words.
Unvote Vote : ortolan.
WeyounsLastClone- who would you like to lynch today?
1071 by tajo is illogical.
caf19's 1080 very town.
At present I am waiting for sirdanilot's response to Gorrad, I am hoping tajo will perhaps try to moderate his scumminess by presenting an argument against me that amounts to more than gut, I am hoping zwet will stop being so scummy and (possibly) distracting from the real scum, and I am hoping that WeyounsLastClone will stop equivocating and generally being scum; or else we can just lynch him.-
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sirdanilot maybe you could just answer Gorrad???
Why are you in this game??? What is the flavour for you entering the game, and are you Mushroom Kingdom?Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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Yes it is true that if you were his scumbuddy busing him would have been better play. That means neither that you made the optimal play, nor even that you even are his buddy (see below).tajo (1096) wrote:Tell me, ort, what makes more sense in the SK wagon when his lynch was inevitable?
a) Bus him to get townie points for being in the wagon?
b) Try to prevent his lynch for get scummy points for not being in the wagon?
tajo (1099) wrote:Ortolan you conveniently missed this:populartajo wrote:Ort, lest go thorugh this step by step, shall we?
What do you think of this opinion of Looker?Tajo wrote:His first post of the game was a vote for Shadow Knight showing a bizarre connection with the Ort-SK dilemma, evne though he hadnt finished reading the thread then.
?Looker in his first post (615) wrote:unvote
I actually did not know I was included in the list Tajo now knows both of my flipped scumbuddies have been busing me.Mora (1101) wrote:I note that you may already have known the answers to your questions, and note the purpose of then asking the question anyways. So my response includes a healthy dose of "You easily could have found this information yourself."
- I disagree with Gorrad in 1104 thinking the flavour incriminates Sirdanilot.
Now I see what you mean about pursuing irrelevant minutiaeGorrad (1117) wrote:Ok, how's this:
How could anyone jump and fall down into a castle? As it's pitch dark, there's obviously no opening to the sky.
I agree with this and actually kind of brought it up at the beginning of the game (Post 71). Recall that before going with the item claiming plan, tajo wanted aKast (1121) wrote:@Ort's question about Tajo-
That said, I think Tajo's persistence and posts reflect an earnest (mistaken) belief that his plan was "game-breaking". This attitude makes him look pro-town.Actually, to be more clear, I think Tajo seemed genuinely convinced that his plan would help him, and I don't think it was aimed at helping the MK.
I don't like that he tried backing out of SK's lynch at end of day, however, I don't think anything he said at that point had any chance of actually protecting SK. It looks like distancing but no intent to save (also no danger of no lynch).
The speculation that Tajo may be a third party player actually fits better considering this. In the previous game, the third parties were concerned with collecting coins. The item claiming plan aids that objective by narrowing down players who are more likely to have coins/able to purchase items.full massclaim(although he later claimed not to). I speculated he was some sort of a "punisher" role (which are included in themed games specifically to avoid mass role/name claiming, by having a wincon to say, eat someone in particular or a certain role type in particular [a la Serum & Steel mini theme]).
Also note:In tajo's 1124 he, for some reason, asked zwet toclaim(at L-4). Convention dictates one claims at L-1, not L-4.
whysirdanilo (1133) wrote:I now have some town reads as well which I think I shouldn't reveal as well as that paradoxically ortolan is quite scummy too (from my read, not from the dumb 'are you not mk' question) im at page 14
Looker in his location wrote:Location: Somewhere on a mountian
LoLLoPoPKast (1155) wrote:@Tajo-
Want to take back your assessment of Looker as a retard?
- I didn't like the sound of zwet's claim at first, especially him only "thinking" he is protected from fire. Please clarify if your immunity is listed explicitly zwet.
In other news we can definitely lynch WeyounsLastClone now.
WeyounsLastClone (1163) wrote:That said, if you're really Kamek, I don't like how you exposed your self from the getgo day 2 by focusing on sirdanilots appearance. Kamek seems like a powerful role, and nowyou're an easy target.
Indeed he is an easy target (pretty likely it's gonna be obvious whether he's telling the truth or not in the future, this is like voting to lynch a claimed cop).WeyounsLastClone (1163) wrote:For now I'llvote: Gorrad.because I doubt someone who had that as a real role would have acted like Gorrad did day 2.
Vote: WeyounsLastClone
Mod: not counted, you have to unvote first-
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No I didn't know what you were talking about, because you made a vague reference to his "first post of the game", which I then went and found, and didn't contain what you'd referred to. Please in future quote the post or provide a post number.tajo (1195) wrote:Ortolan, you are playing dumb in the Looker case. You know what I am talkign about.
What do you make of this and stop playing the retarded card. Ok, if we assume you are town, does it seem strange that his firsttajo about Looker wrote:His firstSERIOUSpost of the game was a vote for Shadow Knight showing a bizarre connection with the Ort-SK dilemma, evne though he hadnt finished reading the thread then.SERIOUSpost of the game is a vote for a flipped scum?
And yes, I agree, the conclusion by him was poor logic- there was no reason not to consider myself and Shadow Knight were both town (him being very scummy-town in that case). However I don't know how this is scummy. Are you suggesting all three of us are scum together and he was trying to create an exclusivity between myself and Shadow Knight both being scum? That seems likea bitof a stretch. Scumbuddies don't generally vote each other with bad and scummy reasons then bus harder than anything in the world, then have a third scumbuddy force an "either/or" link whichguaranteesone or the other will get lynched.
So the conclusion is, yes, poor logic, but you've failed to explain how it is poor logic with potentially scummy motives, rather than just a post of expected quality content from Looker.
Um...no?tajo (1195) wrote:Ok, if we assume you are town, does it seem strange that his firstSERIOUSpost of the game is a vote for a flipped scum?
Hey, Kast was the first to suggest he was retardedtajo (1196) wrote:Also, I want eveyrone interested in winning this game to read this game (5 pages only), specially the Looker contributions and compare it with his contributions here.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=100
So ort can shut his big mouth and stop posting "lolpop, Looker is retarded, you fail"
Looker is not retarded and is playing the retarded card here. His first post of the game is a weak vote for a flipped scum and he admitted that he hadnt reread the game yet.
Why hasnt he been lynched yet?
Looker:post content in this game of similar or superior quality and length in this game to that which tajo linked or I will vote you. Cheers
Oh, and while we're on the point about "forcing a decision between ortolan and Shadow Knight":
Granted that was supposedly prompted by Moratorium suggesting my wagon was scum-driven, but it's not far off what you're accusing Looker of here, ironically.tajo (723) wrote:Mora, you think one of these guys is scum and the other is town?
Role-based reasons. I don't intend to be more specific at this point.tajo (1195) wrote:Why did you first think zwet was town and then you said he was likely town?-
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Um...no?
Shadow Knight was really obvious scum as well, he chose to vote an obv-town player (myself) with nary a reason.
It doesn't get more scummy than that
Hey wait a minute
Vote: populartajoCurrently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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I seriously cannot believe tajo doesn't have more votes on him
He has repeatedly rolefished, explicitly asked for claims before players are at L-1, repeatedly focused on scummy rolefishing methods including asking for a mass-claim day one, and is pretty much just naming as his suspect people who lurk and are easy to lynch bar me. He is blatantly scummy and his usual playstyle is far more analytic whereas all he is doing here is picking on people like Looker with a blatantly transparently disingenuous case and has simply been OMGUSing me all game despite all objective indications of my alignment suggesting town so far.
If Gorrad is indeed town and agrees with tajo's suspicions list that honestly mystifies me.-
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Leading the votes is not a good reason for someone being scummy, especially in this town.populartajo (1307) wrote:He has repeatedly rolefished
Fail. Im not rolefishing. You aparently softclaimed. The player that is leading the votes is the same player you think is town for reasons that arent clear
It should be obvious why. The only reason you ask someone to claim is if they are definitely otherwise going to be lynched; and it's in the hope they happen to be a power-role- so that in some cases if the claim is believed another player can be lynched instead. You didn't follow accepted protocol and continued with the out-of-character role-fishing behaviour you've demonstrated all game; and asked for a claim when he was at L-4 i.e. when you did not have the town behind you to lynch him.populartajo (1307) wrote:explicitly asked for claims before players are at L-1
And this is bad why
More like trying to falsely gain townpoints/ learning who has a certain role you seek; under the (very, very likely incorrect) assumption the mod would allow the game to be easily broken by masslclaimpopulartajo (1307) wrote:repeatedly focused on scummy rolefishing methods including asking for a mass-claim day one
trying to break the game means something to you?
Your case on Looker, now replaced by ThAdmiral, relied on the assumption that his play is not routinely anti-town, which for all the evidence I've seen, it ispopulartajo (1307) wrote:and is pretty much just naming as his suspect people who lurk and are easy to lynch bar me
My case on Looker is not that he is lurking. Fail. Dont you read?
And as of your "policy lynch" or should I say "scum list" in 1270, you name myself, Looker, and Riceballtail.
This was having previously applied a whole load of pressure to zwet and forced him to claim. From experience, those three (zwet, Riceballtail, Looker) would be the easiest to lynch in any game. In Sushi Mafia Riceballtail lurked a whole lot and could have been lynched rather easily.
You also have me. I suspect I'm on there because we have already seen the sheer number of sheep in this game who will probably still follow crappy wagons despite points like:
1) I opposed massclaim day one despite being perfectly capable of complying with it. If you were town and I were scum this would be nonsensical play.
2) Of the two flipped scum,bothattacked me heavily day one.
3) I was second on the wagon, of the flipped scum.
According to tajo though, I've done "nothing pro-town at all" (LuL) (for reference he was actively trying to take votes away from the flipped scum and onto Looker, the paradigm easy target), and I'm still MeGa ScuMMy!!! I almost admire your audacity in just saying "NO NO ORT IS SCUM LOOK", but time spent admiring is time spent not getting you up on the gallows.
WLC dropped off the scumlist a bit for me when I realised he'd actively voted Shadow Knight day one, while tajo was still trying to take votes off the wagon.
I'm very interested to see if you keep going as hard after someone who can defend himself (ThAdmiral) now, tajo.
And I already clarified exactly why I believed zwet's claim, so unless you want another gone fishin' jpeg I think we can steer the conversation away from that topic.-
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Yer I guess it is, tajo is an obvious lynch to me whereas zwet is an obvious mislynch. I guess it depends on whose perspective you're referring to, maybe it's because I'm an amazing mafia playerCurrently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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Vote: ThAdmiral
mod: not counted, unvote first
That is the least impressive way of catching scum, and you didn't catch the first one, we did- you were busy voting the townie who found the scum, until it got all but confirmed that Shadow Knight was, in fact, scum.AceMarksman (1356 wrote:Catching two scum with role PM info. *inflated ego*
That said 1359 was accurate, if he was town he would have instantly paraphrased his exact win condition (starting to think this game is as broken as the last one was ironically). I do not see how someone voting someone very likely to be scum is being "opportunistic" (Riceballtail) though.-
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Hey, the more entirely-devoid-of-logic wagons you get on you, the more cynical you tend to gettajo (1732) wrote:I tend to agree and I know ortolan is a douchebag for nature but this is just too much.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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