MKM II GAME OVER

[ortolan]

Vote: qwints

for sounding like quince (paste).

[ortolan]

First of all, I want everybody thoughts of this. Thats why I asked.

The other game, we had a situation to prevent name massclaim. Princess Peach could get captured by scum giving them an autowin if they could keep her for a night with no killing Bowser.

Now we dont have it and I strongly believe that Lawrencelot put the good guys in a side and the bad guys in the other, like in the other game.

Its also possible he gave scum fakeclaims, but Im sure not all scum got believable ones. Source, the previous game again.

13) Mass-claiming is allowed, but not recommended.

Vote: populartajo

You wouldn't happen to be a scum-punisher (against mass-claim) role now would you? I find it rather hard to believe an experienced player would not be aware that mass-claiming in these sorts of themed setups is rarely a good idea, especially when faced with an experienced mod and

especially

when there is a rule especially advising against mass-claiming.

I don't understand why you push the issue in 54 after AM and Gorrad spelling out why it's a bad idea, and dislike the excessive sensitivity in response to being voted by AM and qwints, in 62 and 68.

[ortolan]

I meant to do this a few days ago but

Unvote
Vote: Gorrad

...HA! Lawrencelot pulled a Space Monkey on us! I completely fell for it, too. I thought I was scum.

Mod: NICE one

As much as I hate to say it, Zwet's in the clear this game. Mafia would know that the Army was the uninformed and therefore NOT make that slip. Town that thought they were scum? That's right up their alley.

Unvote, Vote: AceMarksman

FoS: Shinnen_no_Me

This came across as unconvincing. I strongly suspected from the get-go I was actually town rather than a traitor role- there's several indications that this is the case. I also don't understand your thought process in voting/FoSing these players. You don't think zwet is scum because scum would know that the bad guys are the uninformed majority, but how does this make them scummy for voting for him?

And I don't like the fishing in 135:

More clarification: the mario game I spend most of my time on is Galaxy, and my role has an older baddie in it which doesn't get much facetime in Galaxy I'm afraid.

A quick glance at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_enemies combined with my own knowledge of Galaxy, means that there are only a handful of roles that fit. I still don't buy it.

The only reason it would be useful to further discuss his role would be if his lynch was likely and it was claim time. His lynch wasn't going to happen at that point in time though. I also don't like how sure of yourself you seem here when his "mistake" wasn't necessarily scummy.

I thought I was scum, as my role was a Mario Baddy. I was wrong. I expect most townies to, like me, not have understood at first that they were town due to Bowser's Army traditionally being the bad guys. Therefore I suspect you and Ace, as y'all assumed that every townie knew they were such, despite the fact that the flavor is counter-intuitive.

To clarify why I thought I was scum despite being uninformed, I basically thought I was a traitor-type role. AKA one with a scum win condition who is uninformed.

How do you know they couldn't have inferred or simply queried with the mod whether they were in fact town? And if you assume that the Mushroom Kingdom know they're the informed majority, why might they not also be informed of the fact that Bowser's Army don't actually know that they are town to begin with? If this is the case then is potentially a point

for

AM and Shinnen being town.

Exactly. The town will always (or well, who knows, so let's say usually) be the uninformed majority. The flavour has nothing to do with this. However, I want to believe for now that Gorrad really thought that he was one of the bad guys. In the other hand, Zwet's slip is just too big to ignore. However, taking into account the item list the mod posted, there's also a chance that he belongs to a third party, thus why the surprise. One way or another, I'm happy with my vote.

I don't like this either. Seems like she's trying to avoid stepping on Gorrad's toes while aiming for zwet the easy target.

We can assume that scum would know that Bowser's army is town and so wouldn't make any obvious mistakes, but assuming there is a DK and a Wario in the game they could still have been caught out by it. Therefore I dont think we can wholly confirm Zwet at this point.

I would assume the scum know at least as much as the town do, including how much knowledge town have about whether they're really town or not.

Empking's vote on Gorrad is well-justified (it's for similar reasons to mine really).

Also, I have this creepy feeling that we wake up Day 2 and find out that this isn't Scum-is-Town and Town-is-Scum, but instead this is just some quasi-random "Day 1 with the lights out!" and suddenly we all recognize each other again and only then does the true informed minority get established with more role PM's and whatever...

After having just outed ourselves voluntarily on Day 1.

Nightmare scenarios. Sad

Not sure I like this too much. A game where our factions/win cons changed entirely after day 1 is bastard modish and also renders the entirety of day 1 pointless or an exercise in culling a few extra people before the proper start of the game. Our abilities are "interesting" though

Y'see, this is what I have against Ace. He wasn't at all confused by his role, and automatically assumed no one else would be. AND he didn't recognise his role, supposedly, as a Mario baddy. Personally, I find that nigh-impossible unless he has a named villain (I find this unlikely due to the deaths of most of said named villains in MKMI, AKA Bowser, Baby Bowser, and Drybones. There aren't many left).

I still really dislike Gorrad's attempts to pin people as scum based on "role behaviour". Again I've no doubt the scum would be well-warned in advance of how to fit in and act townie- it would simply be unbalanced otherwise. This makes me more suspicious of Gorrad actually.

Wait a second.

We have items that only Bowser's Army know how they work.
Can we massively confirm people with this?

I highly doubt it. No practical way of doing it, game-breaking so presumably the mod has measures against it etc.

I would say we can possibly confirm 4 people.

True. By paraphrasing the effects. Technically we would do something really lame like "what is the seventh letter in the description for this item" but I don't think that will be treated kindly by the mod,

amirite, mod?

So is the assumption here that basically Law didn't put anything in the scum role pm's that says "Hey, by the way, in case town tries this tactic, here's the list of items that town can buy and their powers"?

(started taking a shower, and this thought came to me)

Very good point which I thought of as well. The interesting thing about this, though, is that (possibly ) at least one of the items seems to be rendered useless or at least much less useful if one's enemy knows what it does (which

may

suggest they can't know what our items do).

No, because there are some roles, like mine, that aren't allowed to buy items.

ok, scratch that then.

Item questioning seems like a good tactic currently, if we can think up enough questions to make it work. Even if we do end up with a few players claiming not to have been given knowledge of the items, we can just separate them off first and then question everyone else. It's probably not enough to nail scum on its own but it'll give us info.

Nah I'm actually getting increasingly against this idea. If scum

do

know what the items do already then we're heavily shooting ourselves in the foot. I'm convinced Lawrencealot wouldn't allow us to catch scum in this manner.

Agree with Shinnen's 203.

I'm fine with item claims to reduce the pool somewhat. However, as I too cannot purchase items (and therefore do not know what they do), I'm willing to

Unvote: Ace

. I don't think that scum would know that there were roles that had that particular twist.

Second to claim this after someone's already cleared the way = still consistent with being scum.

Its a risk we should take.
But do you think we wont find scum in this exercise?

This is the second time tajo has role/itemfished, and in a different manner to the first time. Strongly considering moving my vote back onto him.

I am not telling you whether I have item descriptions or not.

I'm guessing that the presence of the fireflower and barrel cannon mean that the scum have to *buy* their ability to kill. I have no idea what the motorcycle could be as I've never played any Wario games. The banana could be a roleblock power (that's all I can think of that a banana would do). The mushroom might make the scum harder to kill (like you had to get hit twice as super mario to die). The 1-up could create some kind of resurrection, so we had better watch the endgame. It would suck if we were at lylo and mario resurrected luigi who got lynched day 2. The only thing I've come up with for the star is invulnerability.

A lot of this (especially the first sentence) don't follow at all to me.

[ortolan]

a) We definitely have roles more important than others, however these are not pretty different the one from the other aside from number of coins and voting abilities. In last game, we had Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, etc and a bunch of Toads (vanilla townies). However, EVERY role can become a pain in the ass with the right plan and items. I was a confirmed Toad last time and we managed to rape scum ass with gamebreaking strategies.

b) Last time, we had 1 mafia group (Bowser's Army), 2 anti-town third partys coin stealers with different win conditions (DK and Wario) and 1 town. Its very probable we are facing the same scenario.

This is an entirely different game. Outguessing the mod on number of scum factions and third parties at this stage in the game is just silly (Especially because the first game was considered biased towards town, wasn't it?).

I can also think of many circumstances where scum could glean much simply by knowing who can buy items and who can't.

[ortolan]

Well, I can't really argue with that beyond the obvious point that scum may know how the items work.

[ortolan]

And while I've declined to participate, I've already demonstrated my knowledge in-thread.

[ortolan]

Make a stance, do you think scum have items description in their PMs or nor?

I do not know, as I am not scum.

Saying who can use and who can't use items just creates a list to the scum of who NOT to kill during nights, as they, likely, represent less of a threat than those players that can actually use items.

Actually, it goes both ways. For all we know the most powerful town roles may be among those who can't buy items.

I am reconsidering item-claiming. Either scum already know what our items do (in which case this will be useless, but therefore we're not actually revealing anything to them), or they don't know what they do and thus may get caught out. The other problem is that either way, we won't know whether the people who claimed no items are scum or town anyway.

I would ask if you go ahead that you don't ask questions about the most expensive because that could seriously diminish its effectiveness.

[ortolan]

"You are scum because you refuse to know the content of scum role pms"

I have no way of determining what's in their pms and cannot look to the first game for help, where the abilities were shared. I have however told you what the claim is likely to bring in both eventualities, and implicitly participated in it also.

[ortolan]

Assuming principle of insufficient reason, 50/50

[ortolan]

When everyone not in the army is dead.

Gorrad is prob town.

This does not follow, at all.

[ortolan]

tajo can you link me to a previous game where you've discussed a mass-claim then advocated a semi-massclaim like this (on day one) before?

[ortolan]

um...wouldn't it be a better idea just to use this when we're about to lynch someone? Then we can confirm if scummy behaviour = or doesn't = knowledge of item costs and then verify with a scumflip. I will read up to date very soon.

[ortolan]

@tajo- yeah, after rereading and paying close attentioni to ortolan, I'm gonna have to go with a

unvote, vote ortolan

He's made a lot of statements that just rub me the wrong way. Its nothing I can really articulate, but my gut feels good with this.

Unvote
Vote: ShadowKnight

ShadowKnight is scum guys, we can lynch him now. That's my work done for today.

[ortolan]

^^ Sorry, that is my post

[ortolan]

While this is the main focus of the game

there's not much else to do now

is there (although I will admit being busy has also impacted on my ability to contribute to this and other games).

Obv not scumhunting.
If I were a townie with no item descriptions, Ill be rereading the thread to evaluate reactions, thinlking who feels more town and such.
What does ortolan do?
Complot against the plan.
I think ortolan is a extremely healthy D1 lynch. I can go with shadowknight too.

1) When did I say I had no item descriptions?

2) I am scumhunting. I am voting scum (ShadowKnight), if you didn't notice.

3) What are your reasons for wanting me (or ShadowKnight???) lynched?

The implicat part evaluates people in a more "mafia" way. That means that we have to evaluate reactions to the current situations. With that part of the plan I think ort is very likely scum and that Mora is very likely town.

After all, we are playing mafia, right?

I'm sorry, I forgot that opposing a mass-claim is a 100% accurate scum-tell.

I think our next step should be killing off the non-list player who has been drawing the most suspicion. If I'm not mistaken, that person is ortolan, right?

*Yawn*

[ortolan]

I do have a bit of meta-info that pt has a habit of trying to break mechanics/ask for mass-claims in several games, so I'm not necessarily positing it as a scum-tell here. I am of the opinion that this whole exercise was quite a waste of time however. The idea of lynching from the non-claimed-items group relies on the assumption that firstly scum don't know the item descriptions, and secondly that the strongest town power-roles are more and not less likely to be able to buy items. Neither of these are wise to make at all.

[ortolan]

Seeing as we're approaching deadline and I seem to have 5 votes on me, you may ask me a question about the items, I do in fact have the descriptions and have no intention of being another deadline lynch driven by scum as per Election Mafia. I will note that populartajo has effectively prevented any genuine attempt at scum-hunting today with his "plan".

[ortolan]

I will also note that if populartajo continues to suspect me after I correctly answer a question about the items, this will amount to an acknowledgement that his plan was useless to begin with (because this will imply that, I, as scum, in fact do have the descriptions, and this method is totally ineffective at distinguishing town from scum).

[ortolan]

WAY different from the Orlotan in Election Mafia.

Psst, guys, I'm pretty sure Gorrad is scum too. Until he elaborates (4 lines or more on what exactly differs about me between the games) it looks highly likely.

I love games where I can just point right at the scum because they're the ones voting me with blatantly crap/no reasons. Town failed to listen to me in Election Mafia at their peril (Gorrad of all people should know this).

[ortolan]

surprise surprise

[ortolan]

two

[ortolan]

@Whomever- how would you like me to explain? Sometimes, the little hairs on the back of my nect stand up when I read something. And considering that ortolan hasn't posted any porn, he's my vote at present.

Yer that's definitely lynch-worthy. Gorrad is more obv-scum though, because I haven't played with this guy before.

Ort, how about you answer this question.

Soooo, why do you want me to answer a second question now (especially as obviously an anti-town one as that)?

[ortolan]

two

That's not what I make it. Either you are scum or misunderstood the question, which is possible because it is slightly open to interpretation. Perhaps this will help: Is the poison shroom one of the 'two' in your answer?

If you're going to ask the questions you should definitely pay more attention and avoid coming up with ambiguous ones. The poison shroom is not one, however if you read the text of the first and second items, the text of the second item implies that this applies to the first item (as well as the last one)

[ortolan]

EBWOP: the fact that it applies to the last one is not implied by the second one but by the last one's own content. Either way, the answer is in fact two with close reading.

[ortolan]

Ortolan, in Election Mafia you posted long posts full of specific quotes and reasoning. Reasoning that I did not agree with, but reasoning nonetheless. Here you have, with some exceptions, short posts with very little reasoning.

That is not a good reason, at all, is blatantly contradicted by my scum meta (which I also pointed out in Election Mafia, when this

exact

same accusation came up, and indeed earlier in this game, when, again, this

exact

same accusation came up:

I've noticed something about your play, ort. In all the other games i've seen you in, your posts are very long and post large and well thought-out cases. Here, you're lurking and not making an effort to make a case. I find this suspicious.

I'm highly offended you think I'm dumb enough for this "tell" to have any merit whatsoever. I've been effectively mislynched (forced to claim cop in Election Mafia) before for similar reasons (and it was a very, very scum-driven wagon IIRC).

The same things are happening in this game as were when I last posted- tajo is pursuing a mass-claim plan of which I am somewhat unsure of the motivations (taking time out to direct suspicion at me because I am skeptical that an obvious plan which relies on the mod not foreseeing it will help us). While this is the main focus of the game there's not much else to do now is there (although I will admit being busy has also impacted on my ability to contribute to this and other games).

And when ShadowKnight makes a post like that I am not going to indulge him by beating around the bush and suggesting it's rather the sort of a thing a mafioso would do, I am going to vote him, because he is obv-scum. You should be commending me for voting a scumbag and joining the wagon, not bringing in a shallow and incorrect meta argument.

So, basically, come up with something better scumbag. I would rather lynch you than he, because I have played with you before and prefer to lynch the scum you know than the scum you don't, but he is also desirable.

[ortolan]

and ironically that accusation was actually partly the reason I was "lynched" in Election Mafia, so how you can say my play differs in this game and therefore makes me scum is beyond me.

[ortolan]

LOL

[ortolan]

If you say that one version of an item cannot be redirected, then this implies that the other version can

Some people very much need grey matter, or need to stop being scum, and unvote me.

[ortolan]

^^ it is blatantly obvious I know what bowser's castle items descriptions are. I have made copious references to them

Both semioldguy and populartajo were in fact amusingly wrong about the bomb question, also, which makes me laugh @ their attempts to confirm people. Neither of their answers were correct.

Which of the following can trigger the Bob-omb:
a. First person you give it to No
b. Number of times given No
c. Triggered by voting No
d. Holding or not holding another item No
e Passing it to certain player(s) No
f. Time elapsed No
g. Number of players passed to Yes
h. Bob-omb cannot be triggered (only used) No
i. None of the above

a. First person you give it to No
b. Number of times given Yes
c. Triggered by voting No
d. Holding or not holding another item No
e Passing it to certain player(s) No
f. Time elapsed Yes
g. Number of players passed to No
h. Bob-omb cannot be triggered (only used) No
i. None of the above

Now, those (previously) voting me need to clarify if it is due to being scum or the aforementioned reason of lacking grey matter. I'd say the split is probably 4/1 or 3/2 at present (how am I a more appealing lynch than ShadowKnight exactly???? Thankfully the redirection of votes to another player, me, for

no

reason makes my read on ShadowKnight even more likely to be correct.)

That's not the part of your reasoning I found to be wrong...

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? I will enjoy telling you, why you're wrong, after the game. The answer is two. Read your role pm again.

You are going to send me a letter tonight with the value of "x" where "x" is the times the bomb can be passed without triggering. Everyone agrees with this?

No, I'm not, especially not after this post. Either way I've blatantly proven I have the item descriptions. I'm not indulging incompetent play (not from you specifically).

[ortolan]

No, I'm not, and stop being blatantly scummy and trying to waste my coins when I've proven I have the item descriptions or I'll vote you.

[ortolan]

what are your abilities/flavour etc?

[ortolan]

I don't think I can take this much longer. There are multiple triggers for the bob-omb, one of them relates to in-game "time". I knew you were both wrong without even having to re-check my role pm.

[ortolan]

tajo- I do not wish to tie up my potential night action sending you a letter. Please ask me another question in-thread, or lay off. It is not my fault that both questions that have been asked of me have had no thought put into them and as a result one or two people seem to be suggesting I may not have the item descriptions.

For reference, who feels I need to answer another question (because it seems to mainly be tajo still going on about it.)?

If you are town also I don't see why it's desirable to waste one of your coins.

Also, re: the wincon stuff- did the scum get told the town wincon in the last mushroom kingdom game?

[ortolan]

Depending on ShadowKnight's flip, tajo's reactions should be noted.

Take in count that scum got fakeclaims in the another game.

Until now, Im leaning to believe the claim for flavor reasons.

What makes you think scum wouldn't have fake claims in this game. If that's the case, why would flavor clear SK?

I think scum have fakeclaims in this game also. When did I say they didnt?

And I think the flavor clears SK. It feels a belieavable role (almost a generic role with protection) and not one coming from a fakeclaim, since those usually are a little more elaborate.

Here he suggests that because the flavour is

not

overly complex, he is inclined to believe the fakeclaim.

I am a bubble goomba.
I will survive the first kill an invader hits me with, but it will pop my bubble and make me a normal goomba.
Certain attacks* will kill me outright
I have 1 coin.
I am unable to buy items.
Night 4 I "land" and my bubble pops regardless.

Then, subsequently, when SK comes up with a far more elaborate fake-claim, tajo continues with the line that he is not suspicious.

SK: which attacks kill you outright and did you find this out from your role pm or from further discussions/questions to the mod about your role?

I also disapprove of tajo attempting to redirect votes to another player as a result, solely because of their "lurking" (on day one).

[ortolan]

@Ortolan- I'm not claiming what attacks kill me outright simply because you want to know.

If you think it is anti-town to reveal that in case of instructing scum how to kill similar roles to your own (and in fact are actually town), then fair enough.

Otherwise though, I can't see why you wouldn't answer. You are going to die anyway...

[ortolan]

the noose cares not for your claimed "protection"

[ortolan]

Hello friends.

I shall refrain from any "I told you sos" at this stage.

Gorrad still looks like a good target to me. His 858 is perfectly consistent with being a last minute bus. Starting today by voting a "jumped in" player is also interesting when the mechanic was made clear before the game even started- what is intrinsically scummy about jumping in?

sirdanilot would do well to answer his question however.

tajo, now as I said yesterday tajo did tell us he had a "gut belief" in SK's claim which didn't seem to have much basis. And as I pointed out in 864, his justification for believing the claim was contradictory. Plus he tried to redirect votes to another wagon, Looker's, solely on the basis of "lurking", which is a very weak justification for a day one wagon, especially when one compares it to the now flipped-scum SK wagon. That said I do not think he is scummy alone for the suggestion of mass-claiming. I also don't think I've seen him as scum before which makes reading him all the more difficult.

I note he is again voting Looker for lurking.

Can you explain why did you find out ortolan very rational?

No comment.

906- Gorrad still being very aggressive toward sirdanilot.

Or hey, how about the fact that Castle folks win when all three non-Castle groups are dead? AKA three anti-town factions. AKA more than one anti-town NK.

Now be quiet, commenting on NKs is scummy. I'd vote for you if I wasn't voting for Sirdanilot. Backing up this is Bleach Mafia with Seraphim as well as Random Mafia 3 with UROE.

Is it just me or are all of Gorrad's reasons for attacking people really weak? Especially Moratorium, probably the most pro-town player in this game so far. Why exactly is it scummy to speculate on night-kills exactly, especially, when, as you say, we're trying to work out how the apparent two extra factions fit into the game?

That said, maybe quints actually was Bowser's Army, but a special power made him look like Mushroom Kingdom (although his after death reaction would be a bit strange in that regard). It would also explain why qwints could answer an item question.

Errrrrr......? And you think this is plausible why exactly?

The first one had Seraphim-scum lynched, the second had UROE-scum lynched. Both cases started with nightkill commentary, and in both games the scumminess of nightkill-commentary was brought up by yours truely. What does speculation gain? Nothing. What can it lose? An outted doctor.

This argument is invalid. A sample size of two does not a scum-tell make. Furthermore we have entirely different circumstances. Contrary to expectations, we had one scum die night one, with no other deaths. We are also trying to work out where the other two apparent factions fit in the game. How can you scum-hunt without some speculation about how many scum factions/killing-roles there are. And how exactly do you foresee Moratorium speculating about the setup being likely to out a doctor?

semioldguy can you explain what 925 means in practice for those of us not well acquainted with the first game.

You did it, you were town. UROE and Seraphim did it, they were scum. 2/3 is still a trend.

STATISTICS FAIL

My scumhunting powers say that Looker and ortolan should be the next people dying in this game.

LOL. I know I've never seen you as scum but this is so dumb it's worth lynching you for alone.

See, yesterday, while you were voting me for opposing a mass-claim plan as being useless which has since turned out to be...useless, I was busy catching scum. At the last minute, you tried to redirect from the scum's wagon, to someone else's (Looker), on the sole basis of "lurking". Additionally your reasoning for believing the scum's claim was contradictory (it was both too simple to be a fake-claim, and later too in-depth).

And your rationale for wanting me lynched today, apart from being incredibly pro-town, is???

Vote: poptajo

I'll leave Gorrad alone until sirdanilot answers his questions.

[ortolan]

I will answer every accusation you brought to the table, ort. Until you eat your words.

Um, ok, so where is the answer to all the stuff I wrote in 973 then?

[ortolan]

the thing with tajo is I'm willing up to a point to discount his OMGUSy behaviour towards me just as resentment to me opposing his mass-claim plan. If he is town then yesterday his behaviour towards

ME

(not necessarily other people) is possibly excusable.

But him being town and attacking me again today is just bizarre. Not only have my initially unpopular opinions on the mass-claim plan being vindicated (yet he has now changes his story to say that only scum would have known the mass-claim plan was useless, a classic example of trying to twist

whatever

I do into having scummy motivations. Note that I had I

not

had the item descriptions, and opposed the (useless) plan as I did, I would almost certainly have been lynched.

The other fact is the whole reason I voted

SK

was that

he

voted

me

for a crap reason to begin with (which further makes busing an implausible scenario). Objectively I cannot see how a town player could come to the conclusion that I am a "good" lynch target after everything that took place on day one. Furthermore he justifies his stance on me as little more than "gut".

And some select replies:

Flase again. You did when you tried to get me lynched in D1. Try again.

Actually someone told me you have a meta of mass-claim requests, so in fairness to you I had to change the mere fact alone of your mass-claim request this game to a null-tell.

False.
My case on Looker in 832 is not solely "lurking".

Case on Looker, posted in Lurking.
Promised a post but havent done so.
His first post of the game was a vote for Shadow Knight showing a bizarre connection with the Ort-SK dilemma, evne though he hadnt finished reading the thread then.
Playing the retard card, even though I know Looker is not retarded.
His predecesor, Shinnen, comploted against the plan and refused to colaborate.

You think Looker is town, ort?

- Your first point is that he didn't make a promised post i.e. lurking.
- In and of itself, voting for scum is definitely not a scum-tell.
-

Fourth point- I'm in an ongoing game with Looker, and based on his play there and what I read of his play here, I disagree with your assertion that he is not retarded.

LOL

- Opposing a now proven-useless plan is not a scumtell.

So, basically, I see no evidence Looker is scum.

In your case we have your mass-claiming plan, which is now proven to be a null-tell as we have reports you have advocated it before as scum, as well as the fact it has been proven to be ineffective.

We also have you redirecting votes from a now-flipped scum wagon (and we know what a reliable scum-tell that is don't we Kast) onto someone else, who as I said above, I don't see you as having valid reasons for suspecting.

Additionally, I do want to revisit why you apparently found SK's claim plausible. I'm not sure I've been entirely clear with my point here:

I think scum have fakeclaims in this game also. When did I say they didnt?

And I think the flavor clears SK. It feels a belieavable role (almost a generic role with protection) and not one coming from a fakeclaim, since those usually are a little more elaborate.

Here he says that fakeclaims are usually

more

elaborate i.e. he is convinced by the claim on the basis of its simplicity.

I am a bubble goomba.
I will survive the first kill an invader hits me with, but it will pop my bubble and make me a normal goomba.
Certain attacks* will kill me outright
I have 1 coin.
I am unable to buy items.
Night 4 I "land" and my bubble pops regardless.

Yet after SK posts this, something far more elaborate, tajo is still convinced of his towniness. Additionally this contains wierd information like "Night 4 I land". Why would that even be in a role pm? And re: 988, I disagree that "goomba in a bubble" is not an "elaborate role claim" in the later sense you referred to. I can't even remember any games where goombas started in bubbles...

When re-reading I also noticed this:

Looker is suspicious?

Yes, you too.

Are you going to elaborate on this, tajo?

-Anecdotally relating two games in which nightkill commentary was part of the reason that scum were lynched does not prove that it is a valid tool for scumhunting.

This was the main point I was trying to get across with my "STATISTICS FAIL" comment.

[ortolan]

@ Mora yes tajo and I have played together before, several times

and I don't think your summary of my case against him is complete.

[ortolan]

I'm not really a fan of the tajo wagon, he's too much of an easy target. (and so is zwet, you might respond, except that nobody is going after zwet...)

I strongly disagree that tajo is an easy target. He is getting nowhere near the number of votes I'd like for exactly the same reason SK got lynched.

He is continually saying things to the effect of:

Ortolan just feels off and Im pretty sure he is scum.

I know for a fact he doesn't use such poor (well actually, non-existent) reasoning when town and therefore I still see a strong indication he is scum. I'm also entirely sure he's familiar with the mafia dictum that saying you have an opinion on someone solely because of "gut" is brazenly scummy because it prevents you having to justify exactly why you find someone scummy, thereby avoiding accountability for your actions.

A flipped scum attempted to paint four particular players as scum very early on in the game, just as a passing comment. As there's little reason to bus so many scumbuddies that early, I would tend to believe those four players are more townie on average, based on that statement.

Which post was this and who did he point to?

I am thinking I may have been somewhat tunnelly towards Gorrad. I too would definitely like some contribution from sirdanilot. The act of insisting sirdanilot tell us why he's here is itself not scummy (I think I reacted to the vote moreso). As Kast points out, he may have a bit of a kooky meta.

I agree it failed to confim townies but it didnt fail to catch scum, ya know?

It only caught scum insofar as it created an atmosphere of general town-fail where SK thought he could slip in and vote me for bad reasons. Unfortunately, it backfired. The actual thing that caught scum was the bandwagon against him started by Moratorium and boosted by me and all the other wagoners.

zwet's argument that SK deliberately claimed not to have the item descriptions, then get lynched in order to validate tajo's plan is clearly retarded. For a start tajo didn't even want to get the scumbag lynched, he wanted to get me lynched (then Looker LuL). Just because this argument is crap though does not preclude zwet being correct in that tajo is scum.

zwet clearly did try to cite an ongoing game which was disallowed by the mod. I think articulacy is holding him back here, hence having to rely on Mora's portrayal of his case. I do not think he is scum. ~Argh as of the last page I am revisiting this due to the retarded-even-for-zwet claim that tajo is scum for describing the Wario role to him. More on zwet later.

I'm getting a mixed but mostly pro-town read on Tajo.

Please elucidate on this.

Look, ort is off, relaly off and Im not sure why some people are missing this. I hope that as the game progresses, people are going to realize this.

Here he goes again. Compare to SK's "Hehe I got a bit of gut-read on ortolan here, but nothing I can put my finger on", or words to that effect. Do you notice any similarities between tajo and the already flipped scummy-wummy?

I think WeyounsLastClone may also be trying to signpost the fact he himself is scum in 1064.

At first I found Gorrad a bit overanxious to hear from sirdan, but now his silence is a bit awkward (not that I have posted much, but I think it's different from someone who joined from outside the game). Still, I find Gorrad's reactions a bit off.

Nice equivocating and trying to paint both of them as scummy simultaneously.

I don't think tajo is from the Mushroom Kingdom, and I don't really like his wagon. Somehow I suspect him to be Wario or something.

You suspect he is a third party...yet you don't like his wagon???

I know about his meta and the shallow waters blah blah, but seriously, zwet is scummy. Now that he's not 'confirmed' anymore , I can't help but note that he is 'playing up' to his meta. He is tunneling with woefully inadequate reasoning, purposefully exaggerating the aggressiveness and dumbness of his posts in order that people will go 'oh, it's just zwet being zwet'. And it seems to be working - a decent wagon is building up on tajo. I'm not really a fan of the tajo wagon, he's too much of an easy target. (and so is zwet, you might respond, except that nobody is going after zwet...)

Feels a bit like if tajo pops up town, he can say 'i told you so', and then go after zwet. He rubbed me wrong day 1 too, but I can't pinpoint exactly what. Hope to do a reread this weekend.

I simply disagreed with caf19 but I don't at all see this interpretation here. Opposing a wagon in lieu of another one does not mean you're "relying on the former flipping town in order to line up the second one as a lynch". This part of WLC's post is not as scummy as it is bizarre.

His 989 also struck me as useless.

A weak attack coming for zwet is understandable but a weak attack coming for a player I respect only means one thing.

I will answer every accusation you brought to the table, ort. Until you eat your words.

Unvote Vote : ortolan.

OMGUS much? I agree that the votes on you are kind of unwarranted, but immediately switching to ortolan after he votes you feels a bit childish.

Childish = childish scum or childish town, or are you just active lurking?

WeyounsLastClone- who would you like to lynch today?

1071 by tajo is illogical.

caf19's 1080 very town.

At present I am waiting for sirdanilot's response to Gorrad, I am hoping tajo will perhaps try to moderate his scumminess by presenting an argument against me that amounts to more than gut, I am hoping zwet will stop being so scummy and (possibly) distracting from the real scum, and I am hoping that WeyounsLastClone will stop equivocating and generally being scum; or else we can just lynch him.

[ortolan]

sirdanilot maybe you could just answer Gorrad???

Why are you in this game??? What is the flavour for you entering the game, and are you Mushroom Kingdom?

[ortolan]

...so you're not Mushroom Kingdom?

[ortolan]

Tell me, ort, what makes more sense in the SK wagon when his lynch was inevitable?

a) Bus him to get townie points for being in the wagon?

b) Try to prevent his lynch for get scummy points for not being in the wagon?

Yes it is true that if you were his scumbuddy busing him would have been better play. That means neither that you made the optimal play, nor even that you even are his buddy (see below).

Ortolan you conveniently missed this:

Ort, lest go thorugh this step by step, shall we?

His first post of the game was a vote for Shadow Knight showing a bizarre connection with the Ort-SK dilemma, evne though he hadnt finished reading the thread then.

What do you think of this opinion of Looker?

unvote

?

I note that you may already have known the answers to your questions, and note the purpose of then asking the question anyways. So my response includes a healthy dose of "You easily could have found this information yourself."

I actually did not know I was included in the list Tajo now knows both of my flipped scumbuddies have been busing me.

- I disagree with Gorrad in 1104 thinking the flavour incriminates Sirdanilot.

Ok, how's this:

How could anyone jump and fall down into a castle? As it's pitch dark, there's obviously no opening to the sky.

Now I see what you mean about pursuing irrelevant minutiae

@Ort's question about Tajo-
That said, I think Tajo's persistence and posts reflect an earnest (mistaken) belief that his plan was "game-breaking". This attitude makes him look pro-town.

Actually, to be more clear, I think Tajo seemed genuinely convinced that his plan would help him, and I don't think it was aimed at helping the MK

.

I don't like that he tried backing out of SK's lynch at end of day, however, I don't think anything he said at that point had any chance of actually protecting SK. It looks like distancing but no intent to save (also no danger of no lynch).

The speculation that Tajo may be a third party player actually fits better considering this. In the previous game, the third parties were concerned with collecting coins. The item claiming plan aids that objective by narrowing down players who are more likely to have coins/able to purchase items.

I agree with this and actually kind of brought it up at the beginning of the game (Post 71). Recall that before going with the item claiming plan, tajo wanted a

full massclaim

(although he later claimed not to). I speculated he was some sort of a "punisher" role (which are included in themed games specifically to avoid mass role/name claiming, by having a wincon to say, eat someone in particular or a certain role type in particular [a la Serum & Steel mini theme]).

Also note:

In tajo's 1124 he, for some reason, asked zwet to

claim

(at L-4). Convention dictates one claims at L-1, not L-4.

I now have some town reads as well which I think I shouldn't reveal as well as that paradoxically ortolan is quite scummy too (from my read, not from the dumb 'are you not mk' question) im at page 14

why

Location: Somewhere on a mountian

@Tajo-
Want to take back your assessment of Looker as a retard?

LoLLoPoP

- I didn't like the sound of zwet's claim at first, especially him only "thinking" he is protected from fire. Please clarify if your immunity is listed explicitly zwet.

In other news we can definitely lynch WeyounsLastClone now.

That said, if you're really Kamek, I don't like how you exposed your self from the getgo day 2 by focusing on sirdanilots appearance. Kamek seems like a powerful role, and now

you're an easy target.

For now I'll

vote: Gorrad.

because I doubt someone who had that as a real role would have acted like Gorrad did day 2.

Indeed he is an easy target (pretty likely it's gonna be obvious whether he's telling the truth or not in the future, this is like voting to lynch a claimed cop).

Vote: WeyounsLastClone

Mod: not counted, you have to unvote first

[ortolan]

zwet is town.

lynch WLC/tajo in either order please

[ortolan]

I know why he is likely town, but I'm not telling you.

[ortolan]

Ortolan, you are playing dumb in the Looker case. You know what I am talkign about.

His first

SERIOUS

post of the game was a vote for Shadow Knight showing a bizarre connection with the Ort-SK dilemma, evne though he hadnt finished reading the thread then.

What do you make of this and stop playing the retarded card. Ok, if we assume you are town, does it seem strange that his first

SERIOUS

post of the game is a vote for a flipped scum?

No I didn't know what you were talking about, because you made a vague reference to his "first post of the game", which I then went and found, and didn't contain what you'd referred to. Please in future quote the post or provide a post number.

And yes, I agree, the conclusion by him was poor logic- there was no reason not to consider myself and Shadow Knight were both town (him being very scummy-town in that case). However I don't know how this is scummy. Are you suggesting all three of us are scum together and he was trying to create an exclusivity between myself and Shadow Knight both being scum? That seems like

a bit

of a stretch. Scumbuddies don't generally vote each other with bad and scummy reasons then bus harder than anything in the world, then have a third scumbuddy force an "either/or" link which

guarantees

one or the other will get lynched.

So the conclusion is, yes, poor logic, but you've failed to explain how it is poor logic with potentially scummy motives, rather than just a post of expected quality content from Looker.

Ok, if we assume you are town, does it seem strange that his first

SERIOUS

post of the game is a vote for a flipped scum?

Um...no?

Also, I want eveyrone interested in winning this game to read this game (5 pages only), specially the Looker contributions and compare it with his contributions here.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=100

So ort can shut his big mouth and stop posting "lolpop, Looker is retarded, you fail"

Looker is not retarded and is playing the retarded card here. His first post of the game is a weak vote for a flipped scum and he admitted that he hadnt reread the game yet.

Why hasnt he been lynched yet?

Hey, Kast was the first to suggest he was retarded

Looker:

post content in this game of similar or superior quality and length in this game to that which tajo linked or I will vote you. Cheers

Oh, and while we're on the point about "forcing a decision between ortolan and Shadow Knight":

Mora, you think one of these guys is scum and the other is town?

Granted that was supposedly prompted by Moratorium suggesting my wagon was scum-driven, but it's not far off what you're accusing Looker of here, ironically.

Why did you first think zwet was town and then you said he was likely town?

Role-based reasons. I don't intend to be more specific at this point.

[ortolan]

Um...no?

Shadow Knight was really obvious scum as well, he chose to vote an obv-town player (myself) with nary a reason.

It doesn't get more scummy than that

Hey wait a minute

Vote: populartajo

[ortolan]

ort, how certain exactly does your info make you that zwet is town?

I can think of a plausible hypothesis whereby what he said is perfectly credible.

Namely if his pm simply said he had immunity to fire.

[ortolan]

^^ LOL

[ortolan]

[ortolan]

I seriously cannot believe tajo doesn't have more votes on him

He has repeatedly rolefished, explicitly asked for claims before players are at L-1, repeatedly focused on scummy rolefishing methods including asking for a mass-claim day one, and is pretty much just naming as his suspect people who lurk and are easy to lynch bar me. He is blatantly scummy and his usual playstyle is far more analytic whereas all he is doing here is picking on people like Looker with a blatantly transparently disingenuous case and has simply been OMGUSing me all game despite all objective indications of my alignment suggesting town so far.

If Gorrad is indeed town and agrees with tajo's suspicions list that honestly mystifies me.

[ortolan]

Gorrad: why do you think I am scum? I want to see a good case from you this time.

[ortolan]

He has repeatedly rolefished

Fail. Im not rolefishing. You aparently softclaimed. The player that is leading the votes is the same player you think is town for reasons that arent clear

Leading the votes is not a good reason for someone being scummy, especially in this town.

explicitly asked for claims before players are at L-1

And this is bad why

It should be obvious why. The only reason you ask someone to claim is if they are definitely otherwise going to be lynched; and it's in the hope they happen to be a power-role- so that in some cases if the claim is believed another player can be lynched instead. You didn't follow accepted protocol and continued with the out-of-character role-fishing behaviour you've demonstrated all game; and asked for a claim when he was at L-4 i.e. when you did not have the town behind you to lynch him.

repeatedly focused on scummy rolefishing methods including asking for a mass-claim day one

trying to break the game means something to you?

More like trying to falsely gain townpoints/ learning who has a certain role you seek; under the (very, very likely incorrect) assumption the mod would allow the game to be easily broken by masslclaim

and is pretty much just naming as his suspect people who lurk and are easy to lynch bar me

My case on Looker is not that he is lurking. Fail. Dont you read?

Your case on Looker, now replaced by ThAdmiral, relied on the assumption that his play is not routinely anti-town, which for all the evidence I've seen, it is

And as of your "policy lynch" or should I say "scum list" in 1270, you name myself, Looker, and Riceballtail.

This was having previously applied a whole load of pressure to zwet and forced him to claim. From experience, those three (zwet, Riceballtail, Looker) would be the easiest to lynch in any game. In Sushi Mafia Riceballtail lurked a whole lot and could have been lynched rather easily.

You also have me. I suspect I'm on there because we have already seen the sheer number of sheep in this game who will probably still follow crappy wagons despite points like:

1) I opposed massclaim day one despite being perfectly capable of complying with it. If you were town and I were scum this would be nonsensical play.

2) Of the two flipped scum,

both

attacked me heavily day one.

3) I was second on the wagon, of the flipped scum.

According to tajo though, I've done "nothing pro-town at all" (LuL) (for reference he was actively trying to take votes away from the flipped scum and onto Looker, the paradigm easy target), and I'm still MeGa ScuMMy!!! I almost admire your audacity in just saying "NO NO ORT IS SCUM LOOK", but time spent admiring is time spent not getting you up on the gallows.

WLC dropped off the scumlist a bit for me when I realised he'd actively voted Shadow Knight day one, while tajo was still trying to take votes off the wagon.

I'm very interested to see if you keep going as hard after someone who can defend himself (ThAdmiral) now, tajo.

And I already clarified exactly why I believed zwet's claim, so unless you want another gone fishin' jpeg I think we can steer the conversation away from that topic.

[ortolan]

you guys are lazy, you think scum will jump in your lap and you'll win by making incredibly obvious and incorrect lynches.

[ortolan]

It is possible in this game for (pro-town) players to be immune to fire

[ortolan]

Yer I guess it is, tajo is an obvious lynch to me whereas zwet is an obvious mislynch. I guess it depends on whose perspective you're referring to, maybe it's because I'm an amazing mafia player

[ortolan]

I think you should vote tajo, he is scum.

You'll thank me after the flip

[ortolan]

I'm playing to my wincon, not tajo's

[ortolan]

Vote: ThAdmiral

mod: not counted, unvote first

Catching two scum with role PM info. *inflated ego*

That is the least impressive way of catching scum, and you didn't catch the first one, we did- you were busy voting the townie who found the scum, until it got all but confirmed that Shadow Knight was, in fact, scum.

That said 1359 was accurate, if he was town he would have instantly paraphrased his exact win condition (starting to think this game is as broken as the last one was ironically). I do not see how someone voting someone very likely to be scum is being "opportunistic" (Riceballtail) though.

[ortolan]

I tend to agree and I know ortolan is a douchebag for nature but this is just too much.

Hey, the more entirely-devoid-of-logic wagons you get on you, the more cynical you tend to get

[ortolan]

??? that doesn't make any sense

people wagoning me and me voting tajo are two different things

my wagon has no reason, or intelligence behind it

I have many reasons for concluding tajo is scum

I think you should read more closely

[ortolan]

Unvote
Vote: ThAdmiral

I forgot 2 Unvote first, should have been fourth on the wagon 4 future reference Heeh`

[ortolan]

tajo even when/if ThAdmiral flips town that's at best one all for us plus I voted him as soon as he displayed scummy behaviour (your case on him was still crap)- you continued to try to derail the SK wagon despite his obv-scumminess.

whoever vidged qwints night one I urge you to consider tajo as a target- that way you're 2/2 and well on your way to a third and an MVP award

[ortolan]

So let it be known I have nothing personal against you tajo I simply need you to die in order to fulfill my (town) win condition

[ortolan]

don't get modkilled because it is unethical/cheating and will have negative consequences for you-

probably getting blacklisted from future games by Lawrencelot

plus he'll probably deliberately punish your team anyway

[ortolan]

oh btw, I'm not softclaiming anything on tajo, I simply trust my ability to read him ~

ThAdmiral being scum may yet stick a spanner in the words but if he is Mushroom Kingdom there is no reason for tajo not to be third-party, which has been speculated at for a long time.

millar: you can actually help us if you tell us what DK's items do- the banana and barrel cannon.

Don't directly quote your pm please but paraphrase what they do.

[ortolan]

spanner in the works*

[ortolan]

WLC (1468): AFAIK ThAdmiral has deliberately seemingly avoided posting (despite the growing bandwagon) in this game after posting in others so I have to conclude he is very, very, very likely scum (check his profile).

sirdanilot (1464): It is nice to have some support even if I am unsure of your alignment I would like some clarification on what the following comment means though:

Nor a game where town were acting so damn anti town.

and I very much reiterate sirdanilot's question in 1970, which I was about to ask myself but previewed and saw it.

[ortolan]

Who specifically do you feel is acting town?

[ortolan]

sorry, 1473 should mean anti-town

and yes I'd like mod clarification on when the real votecount is coming

[ortolan]

by how many?

[ortolan]

insightful interrogation zwet

[ortolan]

Wait, why are you assuming they have negative votes as opposed to simply a vote which isn't counted?

[ortolan]

It depends if you think the people with negative votes are more likely to be scum.

[ortolan]

seriously, ThAdmiral is still posting in other games; he is guaranteed scum

========[]

[ortolan]

And why are people assuming those with negative votes are themselves scum?

[ortolan]

Few things going back:

I disagree with AM's assertion in 1399 that tajo has played a "key role" in catching the scum so far in this game.

I think the most likely explanation for people's votes not counting is a vote reducing item or ability in play- probably in scum's hands. Note this doesn't mean we should jump to conclusions that people who have negative votes aren't scum- they may well target their own players for WIFOM or accidentally cross-target other scum-groups if they're not teamed together.

millar's suggestion he was using a fakeclaim makes no sense- why would the mod give an actual townie a safeclaim to make them look scummy? Plus why didn't I get one if I'm town too?

and if you fakeclaim a role, don't pretend to use the exact same text as in a pm from me.

I don't understand how he could have "accidentally" pretended to use the same text the mod didn't actually send him.

why have you only now claimed your impaired vote semioldguy?

[ortolan]

@ semi oh true my mistake

it's possible/likely several of the scum's abilities revolve around impairing votes. So you were notified via pm of your impaired voting were you semi?

Was anyone else notified of any changes to their voting today?

[ortolan]

can't honestly say I regret the choice of night-kill targets, bar semioldguy

interestingly Gorrad fails to be night-killed despite his claiming of a role which is an obvious target

Vote: millar

millar: how did you come up with that idea for a fakeclaim (diddy kong), and the pm structure; to begin with?

[ortolan]

let him answer my question and I also want a long suspicions list from him before he gets lynched

[ortolan]

his case on me was utterly illogical but is apparently explained by tunneling; furthermore he was never going to stop attacking me this game no matter how townie I was so it was furthermore a matter of self-survival

Also, while it's entirely possible, even probable this was the case, how do you know "tajo was deliberately killed to put me in a bad light" anyway, there are several ways his death might be explained which don't involve a deliberate choice by a scum faction.

[ortolan]

you can wagon me tomorrow; after millar

it's inevitable but there's no use until we get a resolution to the millar wagon of some form

[ortolan]

Mod edit
Visible Votecount

-millar13 (4): ortolan, Moratorium, Empking, AceMarksman

Not voting (9): killa seven, ZEEnon, Kast, Riceballtail, zwetschenwasser, Gorrad, caf19, sirdanilot, millar13

With 13 alive it takes 7 real votes to lynch.

[ortolan]

Gorrad: did you target millar with fire? and he didn't die?

Thankyou for the "confirmation" You are correct about the details.

[ortolan]

I am increasingly curious about your role Gorrad

[ortolan]

how come that kill on millar never went through?

[ortolan]

Gorrad can you send/receive letters?

[ortolan]

it looks extremely believable to me

[ortolan]

Can you guys hold the lynch please, I see absolutely no good reason to rush through this day

Allow me to re-read Empking

[ortolan]

I re-read Empking and think he's probably town

I would like to know whom he suspects though

[ortolan]

killa seven, Riceballtail and zEEnon, all so anti-town - at least one scum here

caf19, AceMarksman and sirdanilot all need a re-read, in that order.

[ortolan]

-Did you expect Ort to object to someone calling him a townie?

Yer, my thoughts exactly lul.

I think Empking's probably town from what I've read recently.

Interested to see RBT v.s. sirdanilot conclude.

Kast do you know why you have a double vote?

I'll be honest I haven't re-read yet.

[ortolan]

Empking is obv-town, I know, I've played many games with him before

let's wagon killa seven to a claim now please

Vote: killa seven

[ortolan]

why are you guys tunneling so hard on Empking when killa seven has done nothing all game?

[ortolan]

Please, Empking is town. I'm not sure I have the energy to re-read to attempt to prove this or if it would even be a profitable exercise to attempt so but he is a very bad lynch. I wouldn't even care if we wagoned more of the lurkers to a claim, they're not going to do anything anyway and I wouldn't be surprised if they had a useful power role if they weren't submitting night actions or were misusing them anyway. zEEnon or killa seven are acceptable, odds are at least one of the "lurky" players are scum and I don't think it's Empking.

[ortolan]

Where has AceMarksman been btw, I don't recall ever thinking he was obv-town?

[ortolan]

fyi, I really hate policy lynches, which is essentially what this amounts to.

I especially dislike Kast's explanation that Empking has been "actively anti-town" whereas killa seven has only been "passively anti-town", by this logic it is desirable for scum to lurk (it is bad logic). Also I wouldn't trust Kast as far as I can throw him after Notre Dame I will ask those voting Empking to tell me how many games they've played previously with Empking and to detail them. I have played many games with Empking and think I am fairly effective at reading him. I was rather skeptical of him in Lynch All Lurkers which finished recently and what do you know he turned out to be scum. I do not think he is scum in this game.

[ortolan]

Also note: I have actually been Empking's scumbuddy twice.

[ortolan]

It's not a policy lynch though, it's a mislynch.

I could actually vote you (despite your earlier support of me), or killa seven (or possibly someone else if I ever get around to a re-read). I see no reason to get a claim out of him at this stage in the game, he's always very anti-town in my experience.

[ortolan]

Carbon-14 and Lovers Mafia

[ortolan]

it's more based on process of elimination/gut

however I would prefer killa seven first (and may favour others over you if I ever got around to a re-read)

[ortolan]

-I prefer to have people who aren't posting anything be replaced rather than waste lynches to punish behavior that isn't indicative of alignment.

-That said, I dislike that K7 keeps lurking until prodded, then dropping a line so he isn't replaced, then resuming lurking.

The second makes the first unattainable. What is your position on k7 if it is a given he will remain in the game?

[ortolan]

To clarify a bit more the difference I see between Empking as scum and Empking as town, it looks like as scum, he only focuses on himself and only responds to either say he is town, or twist his accuser's argument and present a strawman. This is a classic scum mentality as scum only really need to care about not getting lynched themselves and don't have to worry about others except when it directly relates to themselves and possibility of their own lynch.

Which games is this meta based on? Where have you seen him focus on himself as scum and when have you seen him do otherwise as town?

A townie perspective needs to look at other players and the town as a whole to determine which players are potentially scum.

This describes

ideal

play.

[ortolan]

Anyway, apologies for lack of posts... the game appears to have reached something of an impasse. It feels suboptimal to throw a vote on just for the sake of speeding things up, but I may do that soon.

strikes me as scummy

also agree wholeheartedly with sirdanilot. Trolling/being anti-town whatever you want to call it that behaviour displeases me. I want lynch or replacement.

[ortolan]

Unvote
Vote: zEEnon

[ortolan]

I imagine it has to do with your instant defensive vote for self-preservation.

That and the fact you apparently have no explanation for why your vote counts for -1. That seems bizarre to me.

[ortolan]

and yes zEEnon I am aware of your meta, but none of the active players in this game have done anything expressly scummy, and I don't think Empking is scummy therefore I turn to the lurking null-tellers like yourself and killah seven

although it seems like months since AceMarskman has posted and I never thought he was particularly town, apart from that I've few problems with Kast but intrinsically distrust him after Notre Dame

[ortolan]

The only way to change this would be a very intensive investigation. I think that at least one of the people most of us consider town (ace, ortolan) are scum. However this is just a hunch that I cannot back up with info others don't have.

Who thinks Ace is town, and why do you think I am town?

[ortolan]

I want votes from AceMarksman and killah seven and then a claim out of whoever is going to be lynched if it's not Empking (Empking's not scum though). I would very much like to lynch killah seven considering he's not even laid down a vote. He's probably scum.

Also, the last time Gorrad had a bizarre role which someone referred to, was that in another of Lawrencelot's games?

[ortolan]

yer that's right

it's ok, it doesn't make me more skeptical of the claim, as the narrator wasn't really overpowered per se anyway.

[ortolan]

did you notice killah seven never provided the promised for post

I'm almost sure he's scum based on process of elimination

I'm having second thoughts about zEEnon now

I wish we could lynch killah seven

Mod edit
Visible Votecount

-ZEEnon (4): caf19, ZEEnon, ortolan, Empking
-Empking (3): Gorrad, Kast, sirdanilot
-AceMarksman (1): Riceballtail

Not voting (2): killa seven, AceMarksman

With 10 alive it takes 6 real votes to lynch.

[ortolan]

argh

I thought zEEnon was the lynch instead of Emp, which is irritating

considering massclaim today, otherwise just voting killah seven/ zEEnon

[ortolan]

Yes I gave Gorrad four coins and his claim makes complete sense in accordance with what he has revealed about his role so far, re-read e.g. 1611.

considering massclaim today, otherwise just voting killah seven/ zEEnon

I can totally agree with this sentiment, but I really don't think a massclaim will help.

How come?

-ZEEnon (3): caf19, ZEEnon, ortolan, Empking

One of these is a double voter.

How do you conclude this and what do you conclude from this?

[ortolan]

Why so serious? i been tremendously busy lately and like to think im living up to my "win conditions"

Did you just claim scum or what, I've seen you do nothing all day in aid of a town win condition.

Also, did anyone ever claim responsibility for the vidging of qwints? I am not asking anyone to at this stage but wondering if they had earlier and I'd forgotten about it.

I am torn between voting killah seven and requesting a massclaim at this point.

[ortolan]

and why is that?

[ortolan]

Perhaps we should just get who we want to claim and decide whether to lynch them or move onto the next person. That works for me

I vote killah seven claims first, my finger is on the lynch button

[ortolan]

pretty sure that claim's lynchable

vote for yourself please killah seven

[ortolan]

Why not?

[ortolan]

why does

he need to vote himself ortolan? do you want to check his vote or something?

he refuse to vote himself when his vote is supposedly worth nothing and therefore meaningless?

Fixed. killah today, sirdan tomorrow

[ortolan]

Um, AceMarksman, you are aware there have been another nights where apparently no scum kills were submitted (e.g. the first)?

And I can confirm that at least one scum attack went through last night

[ortolan]

I'd also be wary of AM playing a gambit to get a townie lynched if this is LYOL

On the other hand, killah seven's lack of participation through the whole game PLUS his claim his vote is worse zero yet reticence to vote for himself is scummy.

[ortolan]

worth*

[ortolan]

I'm skeptical that AM claimed only his last night's target when he first posted, surely he would know previous night's targets are also of interest. Also, notably, there were no deaths of town players on night 1 so I am curious as to why he didn't infer the same thing about night 1 is odd.

on the other hand killah seven has done nothing all game but apparently cares enough about the game to post comments like "how rude" to avoid getting replaced. This is a counter-point to his claimed apathy because he didn't have a vote. Am I right in thinking you didn't vote anyone all game killah seven? Plus, your reluctance to vote yourself makes little sense if you are telling the truth about your role.

Finally, does anyone know how Lawrencelot treats fake claims? Does he make them for people on request with any asked for details added a la Tarhalindur? Or does he just provide them with the roles? Or does he not provide fakeclaims?

[ortolan]

it is interesting that both Kast and AceMarksman claimed results last night that incriminate someone, which never happened previously as far as I'm aware.

Based on Shadow Knight's claim I think he might give them safeclaims, I'm going to check MKM1

[ortolan]

I agree

Vote: caf19

[ortolan]

unless some1's been fibbin'

[ortolan]

so can we lynch killah seven now?

[ortolan]

I have no intention of (myself) claiming at all at this point

if we're massclaiming zEEnon can go next

it should be in order of scummiest, and we stop if we get obv-scum

[ortolan]

I think zEE should claim now then I will dictate whether I like his answer enough to ask somebody else to claim; or if we should lynch him

[ortolan]

I wasn't being entirely serious there However I still think there is merit in going with the claims one by one. zEEnon claim and nominate the next person pleasey

[ortolan]

why did you target Kast?

[ortolan]

I'm really thinking a killah seven lynch seems good

he claims to be playing to his win condition but clearly isn't helping the town, plus he's claimed to have an item list but no coins, and doesn't get any. That's very scummy.

[ortolan]

did you think he was scum zEE (in this game), or was it just a policy vote deprival?

[ortolan]

I think I always read it as that LoL

I will make an effort from now though

ok ZEEnon is obv-town, let's get a claim from caf

[ortolan]

why would I apologise for calling you a liar in the context of a mafia game?

that post is scummy

[ortolan]

@ ort, im notlying i do have a items list and havent recieved any coins so far, you dont have to believe me but after im dead and at end game i would like a apology for calling me a liar.

Because that is both a paranoid - assuming you are going to be lynched ("but after I'm dead and at end game")

; and odd that you would suggest I would feel like I should apologise simply for calling you a liar (obviously one is attempting to deduce who the lying scum are in a mafia game)- the only reason I would apologise to you is if I had misread you with no good reason, or had screwed up the town/mafia's chances of winning, or if I had gone too far with a personal attack or somesuch.

[ortolan]

I hate how Ortolan is trying to dictate the claiming order and the lynches of both today and tomorrow. I am beginning to think he is scum.

This is scummy. FYI as I said I was being facetious, plus objectively I am the most confirmed town player as Gorrad has claimed an investigation innocent on me- in order for me to be scum he has to also be scum. (Plus, if I was serious, does scum ever draw attention to themselves like that and blatantly dictate the town's agenda in an aggressive way?)

I believe caf's claim so far. How many coins bonus do you get for hammering caf?

[ortolan]

any particular reason you wanted to kill zwet?

[ortolan]

RBT is next to claim

Mod: please prod Riceballtail, thanks

[ortolan]

This isn't required, I was communicating with Law about my claim.

Why?

I started with two votes, and can sacrifice voting power to vig a player. I did so N1 by killing Qwints. I haven't used it again since due to it costing me two votes and my likelihood of hitting scum being lowered thanks to getting two lynched and one vig'd.

Why did you target qwints? How would it cost you two votes to use it again, you've already used it once so presumably that cost you one vote and using it again would only cost you one more. When you say "getting two lynched" you were only voting for ThAdmiral, not SK when they were lynched.

Would the other parakoopa like to go next?

You know there is a parakoopa present in the setup?

Oh, and would you mind also explaining your claiming of a non-existent role?

[ortolan]

is this going to be the third out of three lynches where someone's been lynched due to dodgy claim? (if you include SK's although he was obv-scum anyway )

[ortolan]

he was also voting for Shadow Knight... (you weren't)

[ortolan]

I don't understand the extreme trust in Gorrad. Simply identifying another player's coins/items/possibly rolename should not be sufficient to prove that he is on BA team.

Well he did confirm me as town when if he'd been scum he could quite easily sit back and wait for me to get wagoned after attacking tajo who was killed and flipped town. Also his latest list is extremely town.

Ace: Almost certainly fakeclaiming, as it's already been shown by zwet and Kast that the scum MO is fire, not jumping.

Caf: Assured town. Scum killing Zwet is unthinkable.

Kast: Likely town, thanks to his 'aha!' moment at the day start.

K7: Dry Bones died last game. Scum for sure.

Ort: Confirmed town.

RBT: Bad fakeclaim. 90% certain 3rd party.

ZEE: Role seems to be pretty freakin' confirmed.

I agree wholeheartedly that killah seven and Riceballtail are the scummiest. I don't know why Riceballtail is yet to answer our further questions about his role though.

I'm not sure where that reported claim of AceMarksman's is from, but I disagree with your conclusion that AM is scum because jumping isn't a scum ability. I happen to know it is.

[ortolan]

Tbh, I don't think I'm a big target for scum or townie roles, but I plan to use my kill tonight and I wanted this out in the open in the event that I die and take people with me. If there are a lot of kills with me as one of them, it is possible that people tried targeting me and I exploded.

So you're basically warning anyone who tries to kill you that you'll (possibly) just take them with you. I don't see why a townie would do this.

[ortolan]

hmm fair point

have we had a hammer yet? If not I really really want RBT to answer the questions leveled at him

[ortolan]

I intend to vote for RBT today

[ortolan]

I haven't claimed yet. Should I claim?

The only reason you got out of claiming yesterday is that killah seven got prematurely hammered. Yes, you are claiming, do so now please.

I think it's ridiculous that ortolan is still alive, while he says crap such as 'I intend to vote for RBT today' while I haven't even claimed yet while it is obvious our claims are tied.

And your attempts to direct suspicion towards me when I have not only been clearly pro-town all game but have been explicitly cleared by a dead player with an investigative role are also scummy. Don't think I forgot you're blatantly scummy attempts to pretend to signpost a change in attitude when you said something along the lines of "I think one of the people we've all been assuming is town is scum, like ortolan".

It is not at all obvious your claims are tied in any way.

Sorry, but I didn't believe that claim. I think it was/is overpowered.

Yer you did this in Notre Dame too. That's scummy.

Kast claiming zEEnon as a top suspect is scummy also when as far as I can remember zEEnon is one of the most likely town, but I need to refresh my mind on his claim.

Yesterday you mentioned that you can confirm at least 1 scum attack that went through. Are you willing to share more on that, and particularly, do you know if there were more kill attempts last night?

I don't have anything useful to share on this topic.

we have 6 players remaining, meaning we have at most 2 antitown roles left.

There's third party roles in this game.

But I am very much willing to lynch ortolan, solely because of scumtells.

Scorching analysis.

[ortolan]

oh true, my bad

can we get a claim out of u guyths now, if your roles are "linked"? And why does sirdanilot assume I should have inferred your roles were linked?

[ortolan]

RBT: What was the meaning of this:

Would the other parakoopa like to go next?

Why qwints? Because I thought Tajo's plan was a stupid idea. I stated such multiple times. I figured that qwints was in on a bus, and went with such hunch.

Please be more specific about why you targeted qwints rather than anyone else on the wagon. What did he say that made you think he was busing?

Also, Ort, you still need to claim yourself, even if you're confirmed town. I really don't like the attitude this shows.

What about this attitude do you not like specifically? If I am confirmed town and don't feel that there is any benefit to town by claiming this role what issue do you take with this position?

-Notre Dame was open role. I don't think anybody made any implausible role claims in that game. If you are again referring to an ingrained distrust of me due to misreading me in another game, there's really nothing I can do or say about that.

I'd appreciate more if you'd address my reasoning instead of reminiscing old games.

I never said this was the motivation behind making that statement, your inference is incorrect. I specifically recall in HoND you saying:

Sorry Ort, but I still maintain that your voting behavior regarding Budja was scummy.

This perfectly mirrors your statement:

@Sirdan/Gorrad-
Sorry, but I didn't believe that claim. I think it was/is overpowered.

Re-justifying yourself after the fact when it's no longer relevant to the game, except to excuse your earlier behaviour. Thus I'm inclined to view it as a scum-tell.

Kast, why have you only used your ability twice the entire game?

[ortolan]

1) You aren't confirmed town. I don't know how you got that notion. Yes, gorrad claimed to have investigated you, but there are many circumstances that could cause his result to be faulty. A (full and detailed) roleclaim would help us sort this out.

Are you claiming scum? Town would never put a vote down like that so horribly irresponsibly for no reason. You obviously are vying to end-game now. Explain to me why you think I should claim when you and scum-sirdanilot just lurked all through day two and are now failing to claim.

And no, there is no way for me to have actually been scum, I cannot control what Gorrad writes and he explicitly wrote "when I die ortolan is confirmed" and then proceeded to die and flip town. Yet you lay down a vote on me. Obv-scum. You are now guaranteed to flip scum so I might have to vote for you (you also lay down a vote when my questions are yet to be answered).

So basically, you claim and then sirdanilot claim and then I will, and then we can lynch you scum.

Anyhow, I may end up claiming although

[ortolan]

Scratch that last line, already covered it

[ortolan]

The reason I intend to vote you is not "OMGUS" i.e. it is not simply because you voted me; it is because you are voting for a cop-confirmed innocent player while providing no justification for doing so.

That is enough reason to policy lynch you several times over; there is no viable situation where you could be town and undertake that course of action.

[ortolan]

you are also voting the cop-confirmed innocent player for hesitating about whether he should claim while you've yet to claim yourself, scum

[ortolan]

(and you ignored the tangent of discussion about you claiming in favour of prematurely voting me)

[ortolan]

Gorrad repeatedly said I was confirmed town before he died and said there was no potential for external interference with his investigations, and happily said that if he died I would be confirmed town. Additionally there's absolutely nothing scummy I've done all game- Shadow Knight got lynched because he voted me for no reason and I was second on his wagon- not only through the events of the game but through a confirmed town guaranteed cop sanity am I confirmed town. Anyone spending time scrutinising me and ignoring the other players in the game is not town. I am prepared to policy lynch anyone attacking me. AceMarksman is guaranteed scum.

[ortolan]

I hope so LOL

I'd forgotten about Ace's claim

RBT's claim is still way scummy and he's still yet to answer my questions.

Then I would lynch AceMarksman or sirdanilot- probably sirdanilot first unfortunately because AceMarksman has done nothing scummy except vote me, but that's almost enough to get him over the line.

I could see Kast being third party but I'm willing to assume he's not because the game is probably unwinnable if he is (or even isn't) so I'll just go with Occam's razor and give him the benefit of the doubt.

[ortolan]

I'll claim after RBT answers my questions

Mod edit
Visible Votecount

ortolan (2): AceMarksman, ZEEnon

Not voting (4): sirdanilot, Riceballtail, Kast, ortolan

With 6 alive it takes 4 real votes to lynch.

[ortolan]

tbh I get the sneaking suspicion Kast checked that to see if he could hammer me and end-game

[ortolan]

RBT: What was the meaning of this:

Would the other parakoopa like to go next?

[ortolan]

@Ort: I have a hunch that's your role, but I really don't know for sure.

...

Please elaborate on the reasoning behind this "hunch"

[ortolan]

What did you think you'd gain out of me claiming if you'd already inferred my role RBT?

To me that reasoning doesn't sound very plausible. Obviously you're a genius if you could guess my role simply from the information that it started with R (and even then just hint it was a "parakoopa" role, not necessarily a red parakoopa). The same applies to your kill on qwints, the reasoning you gave for suspecting him seems implausible to me.

On the other hand in claiming you killed qwints if you were lying you'd have to think with reasonable certainty that the player actually responsible for killing qwints was no longer in the game to counter-claim you. To that end I think you may have been responsible for qwints death, but then the most likely scenario is that you are non-MK scum. I see your two explanations re: qwints and my rolename as implausible, under the dictum Lynch All Liars I would be voting you now.

[ortolan]

good point but you shouldn't have answered for him

[ortolan]

I'm very sorry to hear that Lawrence and sirdan

You have my best wishes

I will message Flameaxe

[ortolan]

I've spoken to both Flameaxe and MafiaSSK about taking over modding and neither seemed particularly keen :S

[ortolan]

I messaged curiouskarmadog now also

[ortolan]

Three cheers for Kmd!

Hip hip hooray!

Hip hip hooray!

Hip hip hooray!

[ortolan]

assuming that's all accurate then I think AceMarksman is an obvious lynch. His reckless vote on me earlier is still difficult to explain from a town perspective.

Re: my role, I would rather not claim specifics as all that will accomplish is assisting the scum in night-kill decisions. I have no relevant abilities. If I was scum I could simply make something up, or you know, use the fakeclaim it's obvious that scum have (everyone here has claimed a reasonably convincing sounding town role and it's obvious not everyone here is town). Claiming role specifics is suboptimal play when there is a confirmed town player who has said it is 100% guaranteed I am town and I know for a fact claiming my role will not contribute anything bar assisting the scum in making night-kill decisions.

[ortolan]

What are your reasons for wanting RBT lynched?

If AceMarksman is proven to have lied about his powers then that is in my view more than enough justification to autolynch him

[ortolan]

I agree with you about qwints

I am curious to see if he can provide a better explanation for why he targeted qwints than the one he gave previously- I would like some more details

Otherwise though, if it's proven AM lied then it's sort of a 100% likely to be lying scum compared to ~65% so I would still go with AM

[ortolan]

At this point in time, I don't see a winning town strategy.

There is no reason to assume this, it's impossible to guess how the interactions of night actions/items will go. It's also possible there's 0 mushroom kingdom and one of each of the third parties left, in which case we'd still be in with a shot assuming we didn't gain benefits from any items/night abilities

Those aren't bad points against zEEnon (He's at least behind AM and probably RBT in my desire to lynch list though).

[ortolan]

@Ort-
One thing that bugs me; why would AceM (as third party or as MK) try to lynch you? I would think third party would probably want to equalize by working with town to lynch other scum and increase their own chance of winning. Possibly an unusual victory condition (kill all 'troopas?), short of that, it's not making much sense to me.

Yer it doesn't seen like good play as scum but it makes even less sense as town. Leaving a vote on me like that, especially with the scarce justification he gave (surely you'd be more careful in likely endgame) is not wise play as town and I find it far less plausible he is town as a result. He may have been scum vying to end-game (if he is scum with at least one other player this is quite possible). Or he might be the sole (surviving?) member of his scum faction, in which case voting me in an attempt to endgame makes no sense. However again it makes even less sense as town. I eagerly await his explanation for why his claim is inconsistent with voting records.

[ortolan]

the game is stalling because AceMarksman isn't defending himself

[ortolan]

Kast's grilling of Ace is captivating. I do need to check his sources on the voting.

Kast does bring a fairly good point. How do you know that jumping is their kill method?

This reads as scummy to me. Just the "their" and the way it's phrased implies RBT already knows also.

[ortolan]

wow that's amazingly bad timing for Ace (if he's town), LuL

I'll probably vote for him tomorrow, I don't like him ignoring the second round of questions. He also totally neglected to answer any of Kast's points about inconsistences in his voting.

[ortolan]

I am seriously agonising over whether to vote Ace or RBT

I think zEEnon is town for the record

[ortolan]

I thought your case against ZEEnon was pretty weak Kast

The only possibly scummy thing you pointed out was

Things were extremely rushed those days, and I was incredibly annoyed to see
that millar1 was lynched without me being able to analyze the situation.
Hell, did you guys even allow him to claim?

As for my suspicions, I was thinking populartajo. Looks like I was incorrect.
As for the living players, I think that Gorrad and subsequently, ortolan, are town.
I'm quite unsure about everyone else to be honest, as I have not been regularly following this game.

The bolded appears like spouting town platitudes- "oh my, how could you lynch him without allowing me to analyse the situation!!!". That said it's a pretty (very) weak reason for suspecting someone.

[ortolan]

ZEE's target Kast appears to have worked.

Wouldn't you have known definitively at the time whether it worked or not, as Lawrencelot pms people when their votes have changed? (this is correct, isn't it?)

Re: AM's power being able to take people's real vote below zero. It makes more sense as an ability if it cannot do this. Someone with a -1 vote has more power than someone with a 0 vote (well certainly if they are made aware of it ahead of time, which I think is the case in this game is it not?), therefore if someone already had a zero vote then if AM found them scummy and therefore microgoombaed them, if this then reduced their vote to zero he is effectively helping those he finds scummy.

The most damning things I see are:

AceM's target Millar does not appear to have any effect (unless Millar was originally a double voter).

and

except for AceM who appears to have a double vote.

Am I correct in thinking the mod always tells people at the start of the day what their real vote count is? If so this makes AM not claiming his double vote

and

RBT apparently going through the whole game not knowing his votes were depleted scummy (also hasn't he been suggesting recently he

could

still have used his vig powers, even though if he has 0 votes he could not?)

[ortolan]

-Lawrencelot only sent me one PM at day start with how many votes I have.

Which day?

[ortolan]

meh, seeing as we've waited this long I don't see any negatives in waiting till AM gets back and him and RBT comment

I was going to vote AM but I'll wait for the time being

[ortolan]

AceMarksman hasn't posted in almost

two

weeks now, contrary to his stipulation he would only be away for one week. This game isn't going anywhere otherwise, so

Vote: AceMarksman

[ortolan]

well played to scum, I have to admit I was extremely meh about the ending due to the evidence there was multiple factions (I thought we'd already lost) which Kast successfully used to WIFOM us. I also may well not have voted AceMarksman had he not said he would go away for a week just when he was drawing suspicion then not even return at all (he probably should have been replaced at that point but I don' think anyone cared enough to request a replacement). Well done to Kast again.

And my thing with tajo probably wasted a lot of time, LoL, and both of Gorrad's investigations, so I claim a fair amount of responsibiliy for the town loss.

[ortolan]

oh, about AM's immunities, I assumed he was fakeclaiming that part. The fact he was initially vague then only later clarified suggested to me he'd originally claimed the role then had to wait for a reply to the mod so that he could match his claim to what I knew about the role. That said I will look at the scum role PMs now, I was always curious about e.g. how some didn't have items and some did.

[ortolan]

did you lie about your votecounts? lul. I tried to check the info myself but I dunno if I was too apathetic or just took some of the information you gave for granted (some of it you openly acknowledged was supposition anyhow).

Kast: you lied about your votes?

Did K7 lie about his votecount? Why did he do this?

Mod: was the inclusion of information about items of non-existent factions purely intended for WIFOM purposes?

I thought the scum/Shy Guy roles were really cool.

K7 when you give us nothing to go on re: your alignment and deliberately post to avoid being replaced for lurking (when you're still not actually contributing anything) just comes across as scummy. I believe I've seen you lurk to endgame before as scum (Explosiva I think), and wasn't going to let it happen again.

[ortolan]

Um why the hell did he do that?

[ortolan]

Actually if I do say so myself I didn't screw up too badly

my wagon entrapped Shadow Knight and I knew Empking was innocent

it's just that K7 and millar's anti-town play (seemingly deliberately being as scummy as possible and breaking role PM quoting rule) wasn't enough to balance the free lynch we got of ThAdmiral

and Kast proved too good again. Plus although I think based on the opening PM the reasoning that there were probably more factions in the game (ergo we were screwed) was fair, plus Kast's extensive work justifying himself made him look town