A Storm of Swords - Lay your swords down!
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Twilight Sparkle Goon
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You know I'm all about the policy lynches, but shadow is cheeky scum.Benmage wrote: I'd join the wagon on my bro Percy.....but we should already get down to business. Which VI goes first?
vote chesskid
This man speaks wisdom.Magua wrote:That said, Raise: Twilight Sparkle because I'm rather confident than my reads and their reads will be similar, which would lead to similar usage of the governor ability unless they're scum, in which case, woo, caught scum.
It's not random.Shadow1psc wrote:lol @ rvbw *shrug*
Just us, I think.Ben wrote:What hydras we dealing with?
Hydras are formed for a few reasons. Ours is primarily because no one of us feels we can keep up with Storm of Swords completely on our own. We can all read along, but we are all long winded posters and sometimes it's hard to find time to make a post. So we all input our thoughts in a hydra QT and the person with the most time can input all three of our opinions in-thread.Shadow1psc wrote:Someone wanna explain what a hydra brings to the game (mafia in general, not this theme)?
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No, you're scummy for Raising without voting and your only justification for self-raising being "a concise way to piss off zoraster."Shadow1psc wrote:It would seem to me more scummy that people bw raise another person. Self raising doesn't seem inherently scummy in the slightest. Inb4 "you're scum for not thinking what you did is scummy"Twilight Sparkle is a majestic pony union of hitogoroshi, Mina, and Sotty7.-
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There's no motivation for either faction. But someone who's scum is more likely to be primed to troll. Especially since this is Shadow's first large game on mafiascum. Scum tend to like to show false bravado, in my experience.MoI wrote:Explain the scum motivation to pissing of zoraster as a newer player for me again. Because I missed it the first time.
Zdenek any of these people?Based on personal experience and the player list as it is constituted now I see 1 player I consider a lock VI and 3 border-line cases who I might get the pass. There are 3 players I have no direct knowledge about who are new enough that they might also get the VI / newb pass.
Expand on this.shadow1psc wrote:And we've already hit WIFOM. Hurray, congratulations on nullifying an entire argument.
This is where it's at.zorater wrote: My suggestion is simply to stop raising anyone at all until things are a little more settled. By halfway through the day, we can make town reads PLUS we can make reads based on Hand raises.
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It depends what you mean by "dosen't work." Your ISO 1 suggests that you understand the value of town composition. I'm certainly not saying we should be policy lynching this instant; but blanket opposition to a Day 1 policy lynch seems a little heavy-handed. If there are no extremely convincing scum cases, a good policy lynch is a helluva silver medal.MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Because policy lynching doesn't work. I used to support them (which carried over from the old site I used to play at) but in my year here I've come to the conclusion they don't work. Furculow in [REDACTED] was the last straw for me. I support hanging VIs when they play scummy, not simply because they are historic VIs.Twilight Sparkle wrote:
Why don't you support a Day 1 policy lynch on Chess?MoI wrote:If I supported a Day 1 policy lynch on Chess I’d be voting for him.
It'd be a good lynch. Not as good as a lynch on a likely scum, but a good lynch.Do you support a Day 1 policy lynch of Chesskid?
Every post so far has been hito. We do intend to sign all of our major posts; I haven't felt the need to sign one-liners.And which of the three heads are you anyway?
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Twilight Sparkle Goon
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Second head of the sparkly unicorn alliance checking in!
Poor Percy is screwed because of his performance last game. No one wants to raise him now.
I'm going to ask something a bit strange. Do people think that a one-shot governor would be useful for town? Say, on a town read in LYLO who looks lynchable but whom you're sooooo sure was town (which is a double-edged sword, if you're wrong or it )?
Right now, I think the role would mainly have a scum benefit, and even then, only when played at the right time. I'm asking because we're discussing the best use of the role in the Hydra QT. We'll explain more, later.
Leaving aside that I agree with GreyICE/DGB that the difference between town and scum self-raising is negligible, in ACOK, people went meta on self-raising vs. raising someone elseMagnaofIllusion wrote:Longwinded statistics talkon page one(when scum!MacavityLock was the first to say not self-raising was a scumtell). How is the discussion here any worse? Instead of biding your time, you came out onpage threeto discuss what trends you hypothetically might have noticed, that hypothetically might have helped you catch scum in an alternate universe, had we all not been idiots who weren't psychic enough not to destroy your pristine experiment.
This feels like an excuse to post intimidating statistics and analysis to show everyone what a helpful protown townie you are. The real protown move would have been to keep your mouth shut for a few pages, even if the data had been somewhat compromised. Eh. I like a few of the questions you've been asking, but overall, your posts feel padded with theory talk and IIoA.
And the scum motivation for backtracking on this would be _________?Then really it isn’t a few unless you have voices in your head you are counting we don’t know about. For that reason I don’t buy your hedging here. If you only trusted yourself you would have said “I’m the only player I trust”. For someone who prides themselves on strong oratory skills I’m not sure I buy your explanation.
danakillsu wrote:And yet the very fact that you know this statistic tells us that scum could easily have seen this and decided to self-raise because "that's what town does".
Okay, I played in the last one, and I'm calling you on this. Are you honestly saying that any point during or after the game, you'd thought, "Gee, it's funny that a disproportionate number of scum are raising people others than themselves"? Even though MacavityLock and xvart, two of your three scumbuddies, both self-raised at first?danakillsu wrote: Yes, I did know this general trend, though I didn't know the actual statistic. I was maf in the first one and didn't self-raise, because I genuinely thought it was stupid.
I like GreyICE's argument that the statistical difference is negligible, but not yours that scum would be aware of the trend. Since the "trend" is only noticeable if you mathematically calculate the percentages, I really don't like you saying, "Oh, sure. Yeah. I totally noticed it was a trend all along."
In other news, I agree with Locke that DGB has been a bit off so far. Maybe it's that she's aggressively defending more than attacking so far. I also get the impression that she's trying too hard to seem careless. Also echoing Magna's question: why didn't you share your negative opinion of self-raising inACoK?
Were I alone, I'd move my vote, but as I'm only one third of a pony, I'll let my partnersneighweigh in first.
~Mina
fixed ~ modLast edited by Eddard Stark on Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.Twilight Sparkle is a majestic pony union of hitogoroshi, Mina, and Sotty7.-
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Goddamn it.
Eddard Stark: could you fix my quote tags, please?
So, um, do you have opinions on anything that's happened so far? Or are you going to play the same total flippancy card you did last game as scum until you got wagoned for it and miraculously raised your game?Mikujin wrote:chesskid3 wrote:to clarify, at lylo shadow will ignore any townreads he has acquired throughout the game and follow any claimed investigative result. You disagree with that, Shadow?
Jesus I saved your ass from being mislynched. You reward me by going full retard at lylo.
So I don't actually need him to be scum to want him gone.
Girls, girls, you'reShadow1psc wrote:Anyway, I'm going to ignore chesskid and the irony he brings to the table for now.bothvery pretty.
~MinaTwilight Sparkle is a majestic pony union of hitogoroshi, Mina, and Sotty7.-
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Twilight Sparkle Goon
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*total useless fluff post before I hurry to get ready for work*
You can call me Mina if you're referring explicitly to a post I made, or Twilight/Twilight Sparkle/Sparkle/whatever. It really doesn't matter.
I normally play all-alted games (ironically, on a fansite forA Song of Ice and Fire), and everyone spots me within my first three posts.
I think you're being a bit paranoid about just how dangerous the governor role is, but I will deliberately withhold most of my thoughts on the Hand/governor role for a while. (I keep writing sentences and then deleting them.)
Preview-edit: Cow, whether or not you find GreyICE's and chess's behaviour eyeroll-worthy, do you find it scummy?Twilight Sparkle is a majestic pony union of hitogoroshi, Mina, and Sotty7.-
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hasdgfas, if you've got an explicit white-list (that is, you can only do specific *actions*), please perform every action that you are allowed to do as a response to this post.
If you don't have an explicit whitelist, shake your head.Twilight Sparkle is a majestic pony union of hitogoroshi, Mina, and Sotty7.-
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The lack of whitelist from hasd is interesting. A whitelist is the most sensible way to keep it thematic; without one, I'm struggling to see what the actual restriction is that can't be exploited.
Well, lets try to figure this out. hasd, I'm going to ask a series of yes/no questions. Please nod or shake your head for each.
The number of potential *actions* I could post in thread (that is, the size of my allowable phrasebook) is...
...between one and ten
...between ten and one hundred
...larger than one hundred/only limited by vocabulary.
The phrases I post within *asterisks* must be verbs.
The phrases I post within *asterisks* must be below a certain word count.
I am allowed to use non-smiley images (in IMG tags) in my posts.
P.edit: Gray, you're putting the cart before the horse a little, giving him phrases before we learn the rules regarding his phrases...Twilight Sparkle is a majestic pony union of hitogoroshi, Mina, and Sotty7.-
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He said "when you do kill me." He thinks you're scum, will kill him tonight, then tomorrow say, 'scum killed me to implicate me based off of this post!'.DrippingGoofball wrote:
Let them.GreyICE wrote:Cool beans. I'm sure this will be great WIFOM when you do kill me. You said it in thread so the scum killed me to implicate you. Absolutely grade A vintage.
OH wait
Do youknowI'm town???
Did you just slip up?
I don't personally agree with that line of thinking, but it's certainly not a scumslip.
GreyICE:Have you played with any of us before? You seem to know all three of us, but at least personally, your name isn't ringing any bells.
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DrippingGoofball wrote:
Ah, yeah, maybe. Well I'm going to NK him anyway so. You can lynch me today or tomorrow. If you lynch me tomorrow, then at least you'll have gotten rid of a major game annoyance.Twilight Sparkle wrote:He said "when you do kill me." He thinks you're scum, will kill him tonight, then tomorrow say, 'scum killed me {you must mean 'GreyICE'} to implicate me based off of this post!'.Twilight Sparkle is a majestic pony union of hitogoroshi, Mina, and Sotty7.-
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Our hydra hasn't been at full strength for the last few days. These are mostly my (hito) personal thoughts, with some input from Mina via AIM. I point this out because ideally, we'llnormallybe expressing our consensus reads, no matter the poster, but in this case this is heavily me-biased. Sorry if Sotty ends up thinking differently. I know it's annoying to have skitzo hydras; the alternative is no hydra.
The strongest read from us is GreyICE-town. While I'm not happy with the needless vitriol he's spewing in the thread (I have no objection to "Sparky" myself, but in general the trolling and nicknames aren't winning you any favors) and his DGB LAL case is sketchy at best, his hard-to-fake passion and high engagement with the game all scream town, town, town.
As for MoI, the juries still out read-wise, but one thing I'd like to address immediately. GreyICE mentioned that he was only skimming your grievous walls. You responded with this:
That condescending attitude helps no one. Yes, this is a game about reading, but that doesn't mean that it's equally easy, enjoyable, or useful to give us giant walls. If I were to write all of my posts in Pig Latin, it is obvious I could not take recourse in the "this is a written game" defense; but oftentimes slogging through a large wall is equally as annoying as deciphering Pig Latin. I wouldn't say it in the overly aggressive way GreyICE phrased it ("fuck you, I'm not reading that!"), but all the same, I think it's worth saying that you absolutelyI'll say it again - Reading isn't a hardship. Mafia is a WRITTEN game. If you don't want to read go find another hobby like Etch-a-Sketch or Lite Brite.dohave an obligation as town to try to make your thoughts as readable as possible, and concision is a very helpful tool to that end.
Benmage is looking fairly townish (we've all got some experience with him), though we'll be holding on to our raise vote. Chess (unfortunately) is likely town. Shadow is also picking up some town points (feels like a newer player wouldn't be so chatty with the weight of a scum role on their soul), which makes our vote fairly stale.
Unvote
As for who to put it on, the winner is ASOIAF for this:
You don't know what a VI means, so what exactly did you like about the posts of someone most just recommending we policy lynch them? Rav points this out in 209; I am similarly confused.ASOIAF re: Benmage wrote:
I'm down to see where this goes. I liked your posts so far.
RAISE BENMAGE
Also what the hell are VIs?
Vote: A Song of Ice and Fire
@Nexus:
I'm curious as to what these 'later posts' are.Nexus wrote:I almost voted Raivann for post #143 when I was re reading, but later posts changed my mind. Votes with no explanation, even in RVS (I'm not entirely convinced we were still in RVS) aren't helpful.
@Cow:
I've been doing some mulling on your restriction. I have a quick question - can you dance?
@Zdenik:
What are your reads on GreyICE and MoI?
Also, to the town at large: do we agree that popping governor immediately on a target no one wants lynched is the way to go?
This is quickly turning into a wall in it's own right! Most of our players exist in a state of catch-up right now; so I'll end this one for now. Hopefully we can grab Sotty soon and get all of the ponies riding as one~
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MoI:
Explain how this:
Gels with this:MagnaofIllusion Post 281 wrote:
As long as your A-game doesn’t involve faking a guilty on someone who ends up Lannister aligned I’m happy to hear this.Benmage wrote:Despite rolling town. I've been looking forward to this game way too much to not give it my A-game.
= = = = = = =MagnaofIllusion Post 241 wrote:Unraise MoI
Raise Benmage
I’m willing to do this based on past experiences with you Ben. Don’t disappoint me.
A quick skim of your ISO in Newbie 959 goes against this line of thought. I see you replaced in and even placed a player at Lynch-1. There also seems to be a number of other votes placed that goes against the whole “I like to with hold my vote” line you are touting here.Mikujin Post 335 wrote:GreyICE wrote:Uh, guys, am I the only person who sees anything fucking wrong here?
Pray tell, what's wrong with playing rather reserved? What's contradictory in pointing out a few things I've a distaste for and not following it up with a vote? I'm in no rush to make knee-jerk decisions based on isolated incidents that ping my gut. And whilest you've pointed out, Locke, that there's 14 pages worth of reading one can do, consider we've still more than a week to further poke and probe at the minds of others. Rushing in hastily leads to rash decisions and tunnel-vision.Locke Lamora wrote:Mikujin's brief catchup posts have been entirely underwhelming and, as it seems Grey has noticed, his reason for not voting seems contradictory to his previous post. Not only that, but if anyone can read through 14 pages and not find a good reason to vote anyone, it suggests scumhunting is hard work, which is often a good indicator of scum.
What's the difference between then and now?
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Had a bad few days, but I am caught up now, so hydra is at full strength. Thanks to my ponies in arms for posting in my absence.
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Don't have the time for a longer post, but a couple of quick bits:
Firstly, Cow, you missed this:
As for the growing Raise wagon on us. As hinted at before, I'm of theI've been doing some mulling on your restriction. I have a quick question - can you dance?personalopinion (hito-personal, not pony-personal) that the Governor role is best suited by immediately throwing it in the trash. The combination of events that merit it being used: a wagon being on a.) a likely townie who b.) is getting lynched anyway for some reason and c.) I'm confident I'm right and the majority of the town is wrong and d.) the usefulness of the person living is worth the lack of information on the people who wanted their flip, when all summed, seems silly enough that's it's not worth the damn thing. That being said, Magua said he'd get a read on us by seeing what we do with it, and I'm aiming for transparency here. I'd gladly pick up governor and hold on to it until I see a worthy use, if that's what you guys want, though my personal suspicions lie in the realm of "I will never use this turd".
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To me, it read like you were taking a snipe at him as a VI and yet you had raised him after your early game rant. Your explanation tells me I read that wrong, but I am still paranoid. Can I get some games you were in with Benmage as a "Pro-Town force"?MagnaofIllusion Post 348 wrote:I have played with Benmage-Town many times in the past. I feel I have a good sense of how he plays as such. His demeanour and play so far this game give me a Town read on him. And when we are Town together I’ve found we can work well.
The ‘faking a Guilty’ comment has to do with Gorrad’s recently ended Large game. Late in the game Ben, as a Cop, fake a guilty on a player he had a scum-read on. The player ended up being Town. Suffice it to say I wasn’t pleased with that play. Read the game if you like. Outside of Fate he was the only player (up until that gambit) that I trusted in terms of reads and judgement.
That gambit that blew up in his face is the source of my comment. It isn’t something that erases multiple other instances of my belief that Benmage can be a strong Pro-Town force.
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Okay, time has passed, so you regressed? I'm not seeing it. Although looking back at Clash of Kings I see you were scum and yet still voted early and reasonably often. A null point perhaps... I'm keeping an eye on it though. I never like overly cautious voters.Mikujin Post 350 wrote:
Oh, I dunno, about 10 months? I've played exactly two games on Mafiascum (959 and Clash of Kings). I do play elsewhere, but I'd hardly consider play drawn from nearly a year ago relevant content - especially given that two games is hardly a sample size worth analyzing.Twilight Sparkle wrote:A quick skim of your ISO in Newbie 959 goes against this line of thought. I see you replaced in and even placed a player at Lynch-1. There also seems to be a number of other votes placed that goes against the whole “I like to with hold my vote” line you are touting here.
What's the difference between then and now?
Basically what Magua said here
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I think it is clear what Magua is doing. The fact you missed this despite it being only just discussed doesn't sit well with me. Reads fake.xvart Post 403 wrote:
Based on what? Your only Raise before this was your first post, and if Percy had done anything to warrant a Raise you would have changed it prior to him needing to be prodded and his announcement or being sick so limited content.Magua, 381 wrote:Unraise: Twilight Sparkle
Raise: Percy
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As far as Cow and his restriction goes my gut says he is faking it, mostly because I am having a hard time understanding what he is trying to say. I don't think the mod would cripple someone that bad for the whole game. But it's all WIFOM'y but that is easily solved by a bullet between the eyes. The best solution to it all I think.
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I don't get what you are driving at here. We haven't out right requested governor because we think it isn't that great of a power. It's one shot that won't make it to lylo and fretting over it like that is pretty crazy to me. I'm finding it a distraction.Benmage Post 475 wrote:DR....I'm willing to vote DGB.
Although pending a further look. I'm pretty confident Sparkle is scum... Why haven't they requested the governor? They gonna throw it away? Sotty and hito are bad players ?!?!?!??!?! Baloney.... I'd want to give it to them, because it should be a doom sentence.
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I'm not talking about raising Percy in partiuclar, I'm talking about Magua and who is choosing to raise and why. He is doing it in an attempt to read people as far as I can gather as reinforced in post 349. Your question reads like busy work.xvart Post 481 wrote:
It is unclear to me and I don't see Percy being raised as a discussion point anywhere.Twilight Sparkle, 460 wrote:
I think it is clear what Magua is doing. The fact you missed this despite it being only just discussed doesn't sit well with me. Reads fake.xvart Post 403 wrote:
Based on what? Your only Raise before this was your first post, and if Percy had done anything to warrant a Raise you would have changed it prior to him needing to be prodded and his announcement or being sick so limited content.Magua, 381 wrote:Unraise: Twilight Sparkle
Raise: Percy
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What did you think of ICE trying to get the hand at the start of the game?Nexus Post 485 wrote:Ben keeps trying to get us to raise him. I'm not a fan of this. Insisting you're town and the best case for raising isn't convincing. Scumhunt and prove you're a useful asset instead.
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The snipe I am talking about is what I originally quoted here. It read like a dig at him because it was a response you gave to ben that wasn't actually needed. Ben was just talking about bringing his A game and you brought up some fail on his part as if he needed a reminder. I don't understand why you would do that unless it was you trying to discredit him. But I have noticed that your playstyle has changed from when we first played in that you like to throw out a lot of these quips at people that makes you sound very judgmental. I'm guessing it is a null tell now, but I don't like it much.MagnaofIllusion Post 495 wrote:Please point to the exact quote where you think I was swiping at Benmage as a VI. I’d really like to know where you saw that because that’s about as far removed from what I’ve said about Ben as you can get.
Combine all that with the fact I remembered you were raising benmage despite him not playing up to your standards recently and I saw a contradiction.
Actually as I type this out, I am getting more and more confused as to why you would raise Ben. He doesn't seem like your kind of player. His style is either hit or miss from my experience and as already demonstrated, you look down on players who “miss”. I'm gonna check out these links you have provided, but out of everyone in the game... I'm having a hard time swallowing you raising Benmage. Gut says you did it to either get him on your good side or to go with the flow. Neither is a good thing.
Oh and yeah, Hito is prodded. He's busy atm but will answer you as soon as he can.
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I don't think it is a detriment. I just think it isn't as powerful as some people are acting.Magua Post 499 wrote:Seriously, the fact that someone of you (and I'm looking at you, Twilight Sparkle) are considering that governor is adetrimentto the town on D1 is ludicrous.
Argh I see a lot of direct governer talk that is making my eyes glaze over. I'll read it properly later on and see if it changes my mind.
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Magua, I think Mina went a little over board with what she posted about the governer. Hito is still busy so it is just me in the thread at this point but I will go with what he said. I would personally prefer to raise the player who is about to be lynched. Both is the end same end result. I don't think this one shot is that important.
But really this is whole thing is starting to feel like a theory discussion which in turn isn't scum hunting. Do you find us, or others like us scummy for wanting to throw away this power?
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MoI, that's not really what I said. In a nutshell, I couldn't see why you would raise Benmage, it doesn't fitmyimpression of your playstyle. Since then I have looked of the links a little and can see why you might want to. Plus he has looked pretty town in this game so far. It was just something that stuck on me on first read.
What's your opinion of Magua? Would you raise him?
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Okay so I need to do a little ISOing of Locke, Zora and possibly xvart and see what the cases on these guys are. That should help me get a foothold here and maybe even Hito will be back too.
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Hey Cow, you saying that you're a dayvig?
It's not about "motivation", it's about psychological priming. Neither side really wants to be cheeky for no reason; but given that someone was, it's more likely to be coming from someone who knows they're a different alignment than the person they're slighting.MoI wrote: @Twilight Sparkle – Hito edition : I don’t think you ever responded to my question regarding Newb scum’s motivation to draw attention to themselves in a Large Theme game with many experienced players (in relation to Shadow). Did I miss that explanation?
Regardless, that was a weak early tell more than anything, and it's been drowned out by shadows chattiness (which, as I said last time, gives me a town vibe.) Maybe you noticed this and the question died in transit - sorry it took so long for me to field the ball.
I've only skimmed the last ten or so pages; I'll re-read and respond to points as I see them.
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I love it when someone who has gone under the radar mysteriously pops out of the woodworks to defend their lack of contribution when someone mentions their name.
...
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What are you all looking at me for? *whistles innocently*
(But seriously, I do get annoyed with the "He's posted six times in Game A today and not in Game B yet!" argument, since it's much easier to focus on one game at a time. If you have a specific question for us or issues you'd like us to comment on, then bring them up. But otherwise, we'll post when we're ready to post--particularly since all three of us have to reach a consensus before we can move our vote or give our combined opinions.
That said, I'm supposed to be the "spam the hydra QT with fluff but never post in the main thread" head, but I can probably write a more comprehensive catch-up post within the next day or so. Just waiting on hito to catch up and give his more recent reads.)
Our original vote on ASOIAF was in part to get a reaction out of a player who'd probably be easy to read under pressure. But for now, we'd like to keep our vote on Thor because his replace-in post felt kind of forced (with all the jauntiness and beard jokes) and because his taking so long to weigh in on the thread is out of character for him. Right now I find Raivann most suspicious of the leading wagons (although I agree with Magna that if Raivann is scum, he's probably not a Stark), but we're leaning scum on Mikujin and zoraster as well. I haven't looked at the zoraster-Raivann connection case, though.
~MinaTwilight Sparkle is a majestic pony union of hitogoroshi, Mina, and Sotty7.-
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Aargh, I desperately need to do shopping for my trip now, and I don't have time for this game. And I'm still running off gut impressions. But Sotty and hito aren't here now and haven't been posting in the QT this weekend. Just a few quick comments:
@MagnaofIllusion: I've been meaning to ask you about something. How come you attacked GreyICE for accusing you of IIoA early on D1, but never responded to this post of mine?
It rang a small bell for me at the time when you attacked an easier target with a more controversial playstyle but left me alone. Maybe it's because despite GreyICE's rhetorical skills sucking, he rang as so genuinely town from our POV, so I disliked you hammering to him to death.
@Raivann: The impression I'd got from ACoK, on the contrary, was that you posted a reasonable amount, but dug yourself into a hole with your posts. You'd contradict your own opinions and shamelessly bandwagon your town reads, attacked people for ridiculous reasons, and had bizarre opinions. I'm still not fully caught up, so I don't have time to compare your ISOs, but I got that impression from some of your play here (for example, your odd list of reads early on).
Even if there aren't multiple scum factions, my reads aren't set in stone enough within one day of the thread's opening that I can't suspect someone who's said something negative about another player. But in your defence, yes, we never mentioned any issues with you other than to agree with your ASOIAF vote. I think I'd mentioned some reservations of both you and ASOIAF to hitogoroshi on AIM, but they didn't make it into hito's big catch-up post.
I'm confused by Thor. I fail at reading him in my past experience, but I don't recall him being this jokey in either the town or scum game I've seen him replace into. My judgment is pending when he catches up more officially.
The argument is that the people on his Raise wagon read him as town. You didn't miss anything.Thor665 wrote:Accurate Benmage assessment in forty words or less
Good lord, we're raising Benmage and I'm voting for it thanks to my predecessor? That's hilarious. Since Magna is on there I'll presume a logical argument has been presented for the idea, and since the other player (Magua) who I'd be likely to vote is currently voting Benmage I'll presume it's generally agreed on that the logic isn't terribad. Content to sit there for the nonce - at least this way he won't be mayor
Do you read Benmage as town? Are you supporting his Raise right now? Or is your vote just on there because you don't know what else to do with it? At the moment, would you compromise on a Benmage Raise?
Hmm. I've debated whether or not I should cast my Raise vote in this post. If we're giving it to the player who's most likely to be town, then the dayvig makes it obvious.
Raise: hasdgfas
Leaving aside that he's obviously not a Stark, Cow would not fake a posting restriction all game (attracting) AND have a dayvig as scum when both fit perfectly with his character's flavour. Why go to all that work when he can make himself look quasi-confirmed with an ability like that?
It might also be nice to give poor Cow a bit of a voice.
That said, I'm wavering on this. Cow is the right choice if we want to ensure the ability does no harm to the town. But I hadn't thought of the POV of using the Raise as an attempt to get a read both on the Hand and the people Raising him. And admittedly, a non-self-pardoning governor in LYLO isn't an insta-loss the way a double-voter was last game. I'm just paranoid that certain players are bold enough to get away with pardoning a buddy under suspicion.
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I've fallen out of touch with this game. Not sure what it is. Part of it is that there a lot of new faces for me and it's hard to remember each players contributions. A lot of spammy chit-chat, a lot of mechanics babble. As Mina has said, this has led me to a reduced presence in QT.
So, I'm gonna pretend I'm replacing in and throw down an ISO spectacular. Alphabetical by the first person in the slot. Mina is on vacation, and Sotty is sick, so this is mostly gonna be me (though I have my compatriots gut reads from the QT.) Let's roll.
ISO Spectacular
Benmage
His quote walls are goddamn unreadable. Jeepers creepers man. That being said, when I actually put my waders on and slosh around in the walls, Ben seems fairly townish. DGB makes a soluble point that Ben wouldn't so casually advocate mass policy lynching as scum. He also said in his ISO 30:
I'm definitely seeing his "town balls" here. It's the typical arrogant swagger I expect (and not necessarily enjoy) from Ben. His impetus to contribute seems town, as well.Yeah I have balls as scum...but not as big as my town balls.
So yeah, while I'm annoyed at his unreadable quote-walls (seriously man, pare it down!) I think Ben is town. As for why we don't want to raise you, Ben, it comes down to this:
The simple fact is, Governor isn't something that should feel bad-ass. If someone is in danger of being lynched, that means that they are someone a majority of people want flipped. At least some of them are townies. Even if you personally don't agree with a wagon, Governoring it can often lead to more issues down the road - what if they keep looking scummy? What if your read was wrong and you gave a scumbag a new lease on life?I'm gonna use it as badassly as I can. Moar Raises.
If Governor is used at all, it should be used very carefully, and you seem like exactly the player who would be 100% confident that you are absolutely right and the majority of people are absolutely wrong on what someone is going to flip. Not the kind of person I want with governor. :p
(A note to the town at large - why not cow? Cow needs a voice as is, and is almost certainly town.)
Bunnylover
Not too much content here. Bunnylover's focus on Benmage's kill-the-VI's policy is understandable, given that Bunnylover was the third on his list.
@Bunnylover:What is your current read on hascow?
He votes Raivann as a self-admitted sheep of Zde 596, but Zde's 596 is fairly convincing so I can't fault him for that one.
Overall, too early to say. He's cautious, but when the game started with someone calling for your policy lynch, caution is understandable.
Chesskid
75 post spammy annoying VI that I don't have the goddamn patience to deal with three days until deadline. A Chesskid vig would be radical.
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As for lynching - yeah, I'm powering through the game right now. I still think Thor has a good chance of being scum but we'll let him catch up first. Rest assured in the eleventh hour I will vote for anything if this catch-up isn't done in time.MoI wrote:EVERYONE NEEDS TO BE PAYING ATTENTION –
Deadline is in approximately 3 days. We don’t have much time to be messing around with singleton / doubleton cute votes for either lynch or Hand raise.
The following players need to get their votes to somewhere it might be effective as deadline approaches –
Lynch - DTMaster, Shadow, Twilight Sparkle, Mikujin, Chesskid, Cow
Raise – Locke, Dana, chesskid, Twilight Sparkle, Nexus, Ghostlin, Zoraster, DGB, Kast, Shadow.
As for raising - I'm advocating a mass exodus to raising cow. If anyone disagrees, please, let me know why ASAP. If you don't disagree, raise cow.
More ISOS from me soon.
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Bad players can still be on good wagons...Benmage wrote: You probably dont have the experience here yet to understand what I mean by quality of players. But those like DTM Thor Sparkle and LL can't not vote zoraster now.
But fair point that it's gotta be one or the other so close to deadline. Here, I'll briefly skip the alphabet and ISO zoraster and Raivann right here and now.
ISO Spectacular: Special Head-to-Head Editon!
In the blue corner, weighing in at 32 posts, it's the man from Asgard, Raivann!
Raivann's ISO 7 makes a very good point about ASOIAF, but I've said that already.
In his ISO 18, he switches from ASOIAF (now Thor) to xvart. He does so sheeping GreyICE. I have a town read on GreyICE (now DTM) so this is somewhat understandable.
His ISO 21, the "I have a townread on you, so don't vote me" looks scummy on it's own, and I assume that's what got this wagon a-turnin'.
I'll quote his ISO 23 rather than link it:
unvote. Vote:Thor
Oops on xvart
I dont like the raivann wagon. He's Lannister i'm 100%sure.@Raivann:"Oops?" What the hell do you mean, "Oops on xvart"?
His Zoraster push seems earnest enough.
And in the red corner, outweighing the competition at 47 posts, it's that premature assassin, zoraster!
A lot of his early posts are focused on the governor role. He's in the same boat we are (governor is by and large more trouble than it's worth.)
His vote is weird. It hops around a lot before settling on Kast. It idles there for a while, then he re-analyzes and drops it back on LL.
I disagree with his line of thought on Raivann. I may be biased, in that I completely agree with his line of thought re: ASOIAF, and so that position was very clear to me in a way it might not be clear to others. Oddly enough, zor himself backs off of Raivann-scum in ISO 25.
He votes for Raivann in ISO 34. It's a weird compromise, with a week left on deadline and people joining you on your pet wagon (LL.) And what of his post two days previous that if there was a good case, he wasn't seeing it? It's true that Raivann's scummy looking ISO 21 came between those two, though.
Overall, it's a hard choice between them. I'm more inclined to vote zoraster, but I wonder how much of that is simply that I agree with Raivann re: ASOIAF. Before I vote I want to hear what Raivann has to say about his xvart "oops".Twilight Sparkle is a majestic pony union of hitogoroshi, Mina, and Sotty7.-
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Haven't done GreyICE's ISO yet. The town read comes from the thread is context, is shared by every head, and is a bit old news (see ISO 16.)MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Twilight-Hito’s ‘ISO Spectacular’ posts don’t do anything to convince me that they are actually scum-hunting. Case in point –
This ISO read of Raivann the piggy-backs off GreyICE's 'scum-hunting' ignores that GreyICE’s point on xvart was complete bullshit. Doing straight ISO reads glossed over this fact that a straight reading of the thread would have clearly demonstrated.Twilight wrote:In his ISO 18, he switches from ASOIAF (now Thor) to xvart. He does so sheeping GreyICE. I have a town read on GreyICE (now DTM) so this is somewhat understandable.
@Twilight Hito –does your GreyICE Town read come from his ISO or actually reading him in context?
Skimming the thread straight, I don't agree with GreyICE in that particular instance, but I can understand the mistake that led him to that conclusion. And, given the way it was presented, I have no trouble believing that town-Raivann would find that post from GreyICE convincing. I don't at all see the "clearly demonstrated" you're mentioning. Are you saying that you think it'simpossiblefor any townie, ever, to be convinced by GreyICE ISO 68?
Also, I really doubt zoraster's claim is true.
Unvote, Vote: Zoraster(L-3)Twilight Sparkle is a majestic pony union of hitogoroshi, Mina, and Sotty7.-
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For the record, I am here, but it's just me (Mina's on vacation, Sotty is sick.) I'm sick as well, but it's a more manageable sick and I'm catching up in bits and pieces. The names still run together in my head and it's making the whole thing hard to follow.
I agree with the arguments that there's probably just one scum team. Specifically, the lack of kill flavor and the relative obscurity of Bryden Tully.
I still have yet to catch up fully so I'll withhold my vote for now.
Apologies for all of this; I'm aware this is an unacceptable level of content but the simple fact of the matter is I've got a lot going on right now and my other game is taking priority (because when you're already caught-up, you can easily spend time to stay caught-up.)
More from me soon.
~hitoTwilight Sparkle is a majestic pony union of hitogoroshi, Mina, and Sotty7.-
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Mina's been on vacation for a week; Sotty's been sick for just about that long. So really, it's been just me, one good player, trying to find time for this game in between illness of my own (it's making it very hard for me to sleep, which has been hurting me all week but actually helped tonight!), classes, and another game where I'm also not at full speed.Magua wrote: In fact, the problem can be summed up as so: Twilight Sparkle is hitogoroshi, Mina, and Sotty7, three good players. It is D2, after a thousand posts and two scum flips. Tell me who they think the scum are.
My three favorite lynches are Thor665, Raivann, and danakillsu. Thor665 and Raivann are not scum with each other.
Beyond that, I suspect to find at least one scum in kast/lmp/nexus/mikujin.
Vote: Thor665
Raise: danakillsu
As a reminder, Mina is still gone (though returning today, I think.) Sotty is going to try to catch up tomorrow. This was 100% my personal reading of the game.
I'll probably respond to recent pages in a more linear style soonish. It's 5:20AM here, and I have a 8:30 class. Not sure if I want the two hours of sleep or if I'm going to soldier on. So I might post right after this post, or I might post tomorrow after class and a refreshing nap.
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Why do scum need to be caught up to say anything useful? As soon as a scumbag receives their role PM, they know who they don't want lynched. I agree that, with you only at page eight, who you think are town and scum don't matter at smurfing all. My problem is that what is your 'playing'? By your own admission, your reads are irrelevant. The difference is, even if you get in a 5 pages read/5 page posted treadmill, you're at least slowly commenting on real things. Instead, you're just chattering and defending yourself without making your reads informed in any way. I can personally attest that, as a townie behind on reading, I felt naked and unable to post in the thread. Scum, though, have to consciously remember that they are supposed to have reads, and it seems an easy to thing to forget and just coast along ensuring your own survival. That's my problem.Thor665 wrote: Town don't actually need to be caught up to converse on the issues of the day. Scum, though, need to be to say anything useful. I can't imagine anyone reading to page eight and thinking that who they think the town/scum are matters at Smurfing all. The interpretation that is easily the most sensible to me is that Thor-town feels obliged to make his “catch-up's” wall-quoting affairs, but doesn't have the energy to do it. He doesn't want to flake out, so he's 'playing' in real time while promising himself he'll make that big catch-up sometime soon.
Strangely enough I actually think mine manages to make *exactly* as much sense. Go figure.
Yes, it does. That is why I said it. I say things that make sense to me.Also - serious question - you're accusing Song of "lurking" until she "flaked"? Does that really make sense to you?
Ah, thanks for the catch.dana wrote:Pretty sure you have to actually say "nominate". But I do agree that a Mikujin townflip would necessarily make me look very scummy.
nominate: danakillsu
LL 1065 is good shit.
yeah obviously Brynden Tully was the stark kill, STUPID FEYSALLynchMePls wrote: 2)Are you suggesting that Chesskid was the Stark kill?
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Because until you fill that missing gap, what you think about the recent 5 pages is literally worthless as soon as you write it down. I've heard it described as "not mattering at smurfing all", even.Thor665 wrote:I also fail to see how page 5, comment, page 10 comment, page 15 comment. Is any inherently better than page 5 comment, most recent 5 pages, comment, page 10 comment.Twilight Sparkle is a majestic pony union of hitogoroshi, Mina, and Sotty7.-
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Just saying that they're my second-tier scumreads.Zdenek wrote: Twilight, could you explain this:Twilight wrote: Beyond that, I suspect to find at least one scum in kast/lmp/nexus/mikujin.
First tier is dana and {Thor, Raivann}.
Second tier is kast/lmp/nexus/mikujin. Those are players without too much content/hard to read/gut pings. I'm not willing to call "you're scum" on any of them, but I expect that at least one of the four is going to end up scum and I'm keeping an alert eye as to which one.
It makes more sense if you read the whole ISO specatuclar.
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This is Mina-head checking in, although I'm still not caught up and hate Mafia right now. And given the position I've found ourselves in, I feel overwhelmed and as though I'm fighting on a hundred different fronts. I'm not sure if I should be combing through ISOs looking for connections to diddin, or answering every single point that anyone has made against us.
But first, I am going to rant, because in my current mood, I find it much more therapeutic to call you all nasty names than reread fifty pages.
Okay. I think some of the points against us are reasonable, while others are ridiculous. (For example, WTF? How is hitogoroshi correcting LMP on who killed whom a scummy defence of Feysal? What kind of reaction was LMP even looking for from Feysal? Scum!Feysal would KNOW diddin wasn't the Stark kill, duh.) But I will be honest and say that I can see why we're drawing some heat. Yes, we've been scattered and slow to move votes, we didn't particularly attack any of the flipped scum, we haven't been a protown driving force, and we've been struggling to catch up for most of the game. And sorry, hito, but I actually see Magna's point on Shadow, because I don't agree with the psychology of newb!scum being MORE likely to be controversial than newb!town.
However, the next person who says, "A Sotty, Mina, and hitogoroshi hydra would be MUCH more protown than this" gets throttled through their computer screen.
If you read the sign-up thread, you'll know I wasn't even supposed to be playing now. Sotty and hito invited me into their hydra as a glorified cheerleader only because I've been looking forward to this game for months and was unhappy to miss it. I knew that if I actually played, I'd only have time to skim the thread for the first month or so. The bulk of my contributions was supposed to be an occasional post in the hydra QT. It is fucking unfair to penalize them because my name is in the sig, under the logic that three non-VIs > two > one.
Unfortunately, we've learned the hard way that believe it or not, a hydra composed of three time-strapped players is not a hybrid monster player who's greater than the sum of its parts. It's just three time-strapped players who have to check everything with each other before they can make a move. Part of this is time constraints, and part of this is because the three of us are too similar.
As a result, we've been a bit scattered in our suspicions on D1. I'll write, "Let's vote Kast, because his first post is scummy fluff!" in the QT, and Sotty will say, "What do you mean? I totally agree with him on the Hand and policy lynches, so he's my BFF." And then we all go, "Oh, shit, I can't vote until you agree with me," and then things stagnate, because we're all so behind that we don't have a full picture of the game, and no one is confident enough in a read to push it. And by the time we can decide on a compromise vote, the conversation has moved on.
The ironic thing is that I personally would have been bolder in moving my vote had I actually BEEN scum, because I could confidently push any logical-sounding case without worrying if it contradicted my other heads' reads.
That said, scum can also use being a hydra as an excuse to fence-sit. We should not be given a free pass, because it's our responsibility to pull our slot's weight. But sadly, this is the reality of a hydra composed of three slow and deliberate players who are struggling to catch up. All we can do is try to be more cohesive from now on, so that you aren't forced to lynch us eventually for being unreadable.
So all the lazy paranoia over Sotty-hito-Mina being scummy for not being the towniest player in the game is really getting on my nerves. hito put a shitload of effort into his ISO extravaganza posts while two of us were away, and I feel terrible for him that people are reading them with scum-coloured glasses. All of us are frustrated that we don't have the time and energy to play this game at our top level--which was the whole reason we're hydra-ing in the first place.Twilight Sparkle is a majestic pony union of hitogoroshi, Mina, and Sotty7.-
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It's after 5 AM, so I'm too tired to answer all the outstanding questions to us. This is just a grab bag of general comments:
Re: Thor, I've said this on D1, but I'm baffled at his attitude regardless of his alignment. This wasn't his playstyle upon replacing in for either Zachtown in the Mountains OR ACoK. For the record, he said in the scum QT for Zachtown that he was deliberately mimicking his town replacement methodology. So I can believe that he's having a bad game as scum and doesn't have the energy to maintain the charade.
That said, something in Thor's defence. I agree with hito that scum are somewhat more likely to jump right in before being caught up than town are. That's exactly what I did in DEFCON 2.0, after only reading the game thread once. Like hito said, you feel naked for posting as town when you're not caught up.
BUT I remember that in ACOK, Thor voted after having read up to Page 10, simply because he had a town read on one of the wagons and decided to sheep his other two town reads on the other. So I don't think his incomplete/anachronic approach to catching up alone is a scumtell.
For the record, the most likely scum on my wagon is Zdenek (will explain more in another post), but I see-saw back and forth on Magna because the towntells and the scumtells counterbalance each other. (And yes, I have been probing you to see what turns up, because that's what townies do to players they're unsure of; hell, 90% of my town game is asking random people questions. What happened to treating every player who BUDDIED you as a scumtell?) I'm actually wavering on Raivann, not just because of his interactions with diddin but because he's been showing the occasional genuine stab at scumhunting--if this isn't multiscum, then he's unusually competent.
I'm currently bickering with hito on AIM about Bunnylover. (No, don't ask why either of us are up, now.) I think one of Nexus/Bunnylover is probably scum regardless of Thor's alignment. Hito is trying to sell me on his theory (of which I'm somewhat sceptical) that diddin was bussing Raivann and trying to frame zoraster, and wouldn't have called BL on making the Raiv wagon look scummy were they partners. I personally think that if anything, that makes BL more likely and Raiv less likely Stark, but I'll reread diddin myself to make my own mind.
I can barely keep my eyes open right now, so I won't elaborate more on these reads. I have actual answers to Magna/Zdenek/Benmage's posts (such as why our vote stayed on Shadow for so long), but I'll save them for another day. hito says he may get around to some of them as well.Twilight Sparkle is a majestic pony union of hitogoroshi, Mina, and Sotty7.-
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Alright, starting from 1075 and sculling through five pages to see what I can find. No guarantees I'll hit everything - requote if I missed something.
Spoiler: Ben 1099 gets its own Spoiler tag
(that's the problem)Ben [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=2841356#p2841356]1101[/url] wrote: Are you fucking kidding me. I am s.p.e.l.l.i.n.g. out how to act town here.
Scum are less likely to realize that scum would not kill members of their own faction. True or false?LynchMePls [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=2841512#p2841512]1107[/url] wrote: Hito, STFU and let him answer. Your defense of him before he could even respond is noted.
You said you were feeling overwhelmed but would catch up. Either you will or you won't. No need to respond until I see which.shadow [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=2841605#p2841605]1110[/url] wrote: Twilight, response to my response of your post?
Why would I need a case?Danakillsu [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=2841845#p2841845]1111[/url] wrote: I don't think I've seen a case from you, just you saying "if Satael is town, dana is prob-scum".
Scum are less likely to realize that scum would not kill members of their own faction. *nods* or *shakes head*?hasdgfas [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=2842289#p2842289]1121[/url] wrote:Twilight Sparkle wrote:
yeah obviously Brynden Tully was the stark kill, STUPID FEYSALLynchMePls wrote: 2)Are you suggesting that Chesskid was the Stark kill?
-hitonominate: Twilight Sparkle
I disagree. I think there's a definite chance that their interaction was a bus.Magua [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=2842730#p2842730]1126[/url] wrote: Raivann is not diddin's partner. Raivann is not Stark. I'm pleased that Benmage took her lynch off the table for today, because the amount of people who are for her lynch despite the Raivann/diddin interaction D1 is mindboggling. Ghostlin will reply with something about bussing. Their interaction does not read like bussing, is what I'm saying.
It's already too late/early (class in four and a half hours...homework due for said class and not done) so I'll just give my favorite bit: When dindin left the Raivann wagon, he said it was because zorasters fakeclaim was bad AND because "bunnylovers vote was bad, less sure about Raivann being scum". zorasters fakeclaim is bad enough that both town and scum can vote him with impunity. So, if Raivann is town, why go to the trouble to burn bridges on your town mislynch? Occam says: because you don't want to go back over the river at all. zoraster was a strong enough PULLING force for a vote; to pick out a stooge and implicate them as a PUSHING force in addition to this suggests to me that Raivann is scum and the stooge (Bunnylover) is town.
So, no justification for the vote when you gave it, but when asked by Magua you respond "Gee, Magua, my biggest problem with Twilight is that when he has a town read on you he doesn't have it HARD ENOUGH."Raivann [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=2842900#p2842900]1131[/url] wrote: While skimming the posts at work on my phone today ,I couldn't see name or avatars because I zoomed in, I read something and I was like"damn who's this scumbag..."
This analysis seems like it's coming from a scum perspective. " Oh, I'm scumhunting and he's town but I'm gonna try and plant a seed of doubt in town because Benmage and Magua are scary."Twilight Sparkle wrote: Magua
He's a very deliberate player. His posts march in sequence like neat little soliders. Reading his ISO, it's really quite remarkable. He flows from thinking about governor to thinking about the vig to pushing zoraster, 1-2-3. It's a very good style for town to have, but unfortunately, it's also a good style for scum to choose (if they can muster the energy – it's hard to do) because a.) it looks hella town and b.) it lets you march off your fake thoughts in easy sequence.
That being said, in my limited (MoCo) meta experience, he posts like this as town, and he's looking pretty solidly town here as well. I will say that as scum, it's an easier style that most to fake looking town with, and depending on how the next couple days pan out it might be worth revisiting Magua-scum. But, as with MoI, we have too much tempo to bother with testing “what if pro-town high activity player x is a scum mastermind”.
Spoiler: MoI 1170 gets a spoiler block too!
It did properly convey what I wanted to say. There is a list of four people, and I expect that at least one of them will be scum. Nothing about connections, as can be clearly divined by reading the relevant ISO's. I don't know how you managed to misread it, but it's pretty unambiguous.zdenek[url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=2844856#p2844856]1179[/url] wrote:
I asked because I wanted to see if you were also suggesting that there is a connection between these players. Your phrasing of: I expect to find one scum in these four, when there is no connection between the players bothers me. It feels like you cared more about making a post that sounded as though you were scum hunting hard, rather than one that properly conveyed what you wanted to say.
Why did you unvote here?danakillsu [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=2845614#p2845614]1187[/url] wrote:
Fine. Your internal consistency has earned my trust for now. unvote
Sorry for that wall.
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I assumed LMP simply forgot who the kills/flips were and was trying to put him on track.MoI 1205 wrote: You are trying to frame the issue in the incorrect direction. You’re scummy for pre-emptively answering a question aimed at another player in an attempt to gain “Town Cred” with your response.
And here I thought answering questions aimed at other players was scummy...
Because you just stating things without support isn’t credible given the general scum-read many players have on you.Why would I need a case?
You're missing my point. What I'm saying is, you said that you suspected my stance was to back away from Sotty/Mina's stated suspicion. But obviously, you can't know whether or not that's true until Sotty/Mina actually post (since what I said was that I was delegating the reading of you to them). Surely it would be better to keep that idea under your hat until Mina or Sotty confirm or deny your suspicions?I never said it was the first act of distancing. That’s a nice little mis-rep there. I also attack Sotty for similar behavior when she eventually backtracked on her “Benmage raise doesn’t make sense” line of attack.
What's to address? You're a player that I don't think I can read accurately, so I refrained from weighing in on you and left that task to Mina and Sotty. The only reason I brought it up in thread at all is because I wanted to give my spiel on everyone, and Mina and Sotty's reads were both pretty stale at that point.2. The issue is that your “MoI always reads as scummy” stance looks manufactured. You didn’t address it very significantly at all Day 1 in a way I find meaningful, which I would have expected if I were obv-scum for my playstyle. All I got from you was a little lecture about playing nice with GreyICE.
And this is why you unvoted *Mikujin*?Danakilllsu 1212 wrote:Why did you unvote here?
Because I think that Benmage is probably town, and if he's a PR, then he knows what he's doing.Twilight Sparkle is a majestic pony union of hitogoroshi, Mina, and Sotty7.-
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Hey, guess what? I'm feeling better now Even better news? I have just finished catching up! I'm up to date for the first time in over two weeks. Sorry to come back and find all this pressure of course, but I can understand most of it.
Well you're kinda right. I like to poke people, IMagnaofIllusion Post 1170 wrote:I very much dislike the Sotty-head’s questioning of my Benmage raise. It feels very much like probing / nitpicking looking for any justification for suspicion. Furthermore the back-peddling done when I questioned why she didn’t actually read the links provided before stating her opinion doesn’t reflect well on the whole line of questioning, IMO.reallylike to poke people I think will be hard to read. I thought I saw somewhat of a contradiction with your VI/benmage deal. I poked you on it, you showed me some games. When I made a follow up post (so not to fall behind in the game at the time. Somewhat ironic I know) I hadn't read the links but had other issues I wanted to voice so I did. Sure I could have ignored my gut when I made that post and just waited to read the games, but I like natural flowing back and forth.
Once I looked over the games I realized that maybe you were being truthful with me and that it is a point I should drop. So I admitted fault and backed away, or back tracked as you like to say. But what else would you have me do? Keep pushing something I now saw was faulty reasoning? That's just silly. I backed away because I was wrong, it's really as simple as that.
As of right now I have a strong town read on you for your reactions post Has' kill and your pressure on Magua among other things. I also can understand your vote on us. Basically your tone feels much more genuine these days I am comfortable with you, even if you're not with us.
Do I wish I had the time to check the links before airing out my gut. Oh yeah. Nothing I can do about that right now though.
I have to go and cook some supper but I plan to be back later and finish my ISOs. I'm probably going to take a look at the voters on us as well. So I only have real issues with Magua and Zdenek. The latters vote in particular was really weak.
Stray thought as I leave: Kast has been really lurky as well but hasn't been mentioned by anyone. If there is only one scum team he is likely a member.
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Spoiler tags because there's quotewalls up in this bitch.
Spoiler: Response to Magua
Spoiler: Response to zdenek
This isn't about being a hydra. What I'm saying is, you're calling it a scumtell because of what youMoI 1227 wrote: No, because I’m not going to let your post disappear into the depths of a Large Theme thread while we waited on your erstwhile companions. You three are a single slot – I’m not obligated to not address what I see as inconsistencies or play made by one with potential scum motivation just because you are ‘deferring’ your read to the others.suspectedwould happen; but why not wait and see whatactuallyhappens instead of calling it right away?
I don't always find it necessary to post my gut scum reads, because my gut is shitty and I'd rather just use it as a loose guide and look for something more substantial. This is doubly true when I know that my gut scum read is based off of something that is null for you.What’s to address? If you have a scum read on a player you should address it. That’s Mafia 101. And your original statement clearly stated you had a scum read on me since my playstyle dictates I look like scum regardless to you.
If you're curious, the specific thing that pinged my gut was the Lite-Brite comment (well, that whole argument, but that's a handy keyword for it) to GreyICE. I think that anyone who haughtily refuses requests to be more readable is very likely scum. But from what I've seen of you, you'd do that regardless of alignment.
I understand that. What I'm curious about is:dana 1236 wrote: Yes, since Benmage asked me to. I have a hard time believing you don't already understand this.
Miijukin is not suddenly not your main scumread nor your secondary scum read. Certainly I can understand cooperating with Benmage, but I'm not understanding how you being unable to vote for Mijukin suddenly made him two slots (or more?) less scummy.dana wrote:Either way, I can't figure out which it is, so I'm going to trust my townread and hope to simply incapacitate my main scumread for the night while lynching my secondary scum read.Twilight Sparkle is a majestic pony union of hitogoroshi, Mina, and Sotty7.-
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I see Hito has expanded on a few things in my absence and I am happy with his explanations.
Twilight Sparkle (6) Magua, MagnaofIllusion, Benmage, Raivann, Zdenek, Hasdgfas
Looking at this I'm comfortable in spiting the six people in half. People who's votes I don't have an issue with and those I do.
MoI
Benmage
Cow
That leaves us with the other three:
Magua
Raivann
Zdenek
I'm going to move our nomination;
Nominate: Zdenek
I still very much like our Thor vote. Zdenek and Magua are other scum reads. I wanted to put Feysal in there as well, but he has posted a juicy wall that I haven't got round to yet. So tomorrow I will be spending time looking over the case on him.
For now, bed.Twilight Sparkle is a majestic pony union of hitogoroshi, Mina, and Sotty7.-
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I know that was for Sotty but I'll take a couple:
There's no rule saying that all of your scumreads have to be on a scumteam together. It's sloppy to clear people as town based off of flips that haven't happened yet.Magua wrote:Explain the belief that Thor + Raivann cannot be scum together (#1060 / #1108) with your vote for Thor and placing Raivann in the "issues with vote" category.
We think Thor has a very large chance of flipping scum, we think Raivann has a fairly large chance of flipping scum, and a scumflip on one virtually confirms the other as town. There's no contradiction here.
Almost-certaintly-town cow was pressured by probably-town-Benmage to put his vote somewhere more productive and he did. There are worse things.Explain why you have no issues with hasdgfas voting you.
Though that being said, you did remind me that cow posted without answering my question. Cow, I think you missed this in my wall:
Twilight Sparkle to cow wrote:Scum are less likely to realize that scum would not kill members of their own faction. *nods* or *shakes head*?Twilight Sparkle is a majestic pony union of hitogoroshi, Mina, and Sotty7.-
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I never said you were sheeping, I said you have no case and are using MoI and Ben as a shield to that. Being first on our wagon today has little to nothing to do with any of that.Magua Post 1246 wrote:Explain "Magua is sheeping MoI and Benmage" with the fact that I'm the first on your wagon, and I was the first to call you out yesterday.
Nice selective name plucking. Explain why we shouldn't be held to the same standards as Kast, Thor, DTMaster, LMP?Magua Post 1246 wrote:Explain why you should be held to the same scumhunting standards as, eg, Raivann or Bunnylover.
Basically I'm saying there is a difference between active lurking and being completely away from the game. A big difference.
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So I really liked Setael's opening post into the game. The pressure on Feysal was pretty good I thought, but seeing her simply unvote almost right away looks strange to me. I really want to know what Feysal said that made her change her mind like that.
This is when I started to get really bad vibes about Feysal. I think it was LMP that hit the nail on the head by commenting that it looks like that Feysal knows Chess was killed by scum. The tone of this, congratulating Chess, just feels off. Like he has inside knowledge of what went down over night.Feysal Post 1029 wrote:Chesskid had soft claimed Tywin Lannister, by saying his character had been the Hand before. The scum may have believed him and thought that Tywin would be a power role. If Chesskid did that on purpose, it was actually well done... he managed to draw a night kill, saving someone else and avoiding his own potential policy lynch.
Also looking back in post 1026 he talks about why he thinks there is only one scum team and the tone again just makes me think inside information. I currently have a weak scum read on him.
= = = = =
Magua looking back I see you were right and I did say sheeping last night in reference to your position on us. That is poor wording on my part. I agree you aren't sheeping but not just because you were the first vote on us, but because you haven't made any kind of case on us outside activity. I still like my shield comment though, it's like your using MoI and Ben to hide your lack of any real input towards us.
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danakillsu wrote: Say what? I said I wanted to incapacitate my main scumread for the night. Therefore I nominate Setael, Mikujin's replacement. What's the problem, again?
I had the replacements lined up wrong. Scratch that. Apologies.
@LMP: Excellent news.
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...Wait a minute. I thought your whole theory was that Feysal was scum because he'd slipped and revealed there'd been only one scumteam all along.
From your POV, it should have been obvious that there were two scumteams, because the Stark kill was missing.
(That explains your annoyance with hito correcting your "mistake," though.)
Also, why did you choose to kill chesskid?Twilight Sparkle is a majestic pony union of hitogoroshi, Mina, and Sotty7.-
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I'm in the middle of writing a wall-post on Magna, but unfortunately, I'm running late for work. And Magna is the kind of player who needs to be tackled with a huge post with headings, subheadings and bulletpoints. But I'm going to answer a couple of things real quick:
Maybe you missed it because it was behind a spoiler:MagnaofIllusion wrote:@Twilight Sparkle –If you haven’t alreadyplease answer the following question
Twilight-hito wrote:
I'm not Sotty, but I'm still reasonably comfortable fielding this one.Why would Kast cease to be scummy if there is more than one scum team?
If kast was scum, but there was a second scumteam, the second scumteam would probably be taking at least some measure to groom his mislynch. The tell that "this lurker is getting a free pass - it seems like there is a significant group of players not interesting in pursuing his lynch" only works with ONE such group. With two, one scumgroup might not want to pressure kast, but the one without him would just see him as another easy-shot townie.MagnaofIllusion wrote: Why does it confirm the other as Town? Wouldn’t it confirm the other as “Not Stark / Whatever faction the first flips” aligned? That doesn’t make sense to me.Interesting.
This was posted before LMP's revelation that he killed chesskid.
Can you guess why we might have assumed that a scum Thor flip would confirm Raivann as town, and vice versa?
Magna, I wouldreallylike for you to answer this yourself. Because you seem to be implying that our comment was scummy. Do you think there's a problem with the underlying assumption behind it--at least before LynchMePls' claim?Twilight Sparkle is a majestic pony union of hitogoroshi, Mina, and Sotty7.-
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Okay I'm busy with homework at the moment and can't get to that whole zdenek wallpost at the moment, but:
Just gonna go ahead and make sure everyone sees that one.Zdenek wrote:
I don't think that he's scum.Twilight Sparkle wrote: Your extremely careful language on this ("who most people are percieving?") needs some elaboration. What do you think about LL?
Response to zdenek to come.Twilight Sparkle is a majestic pony union of hitogoroshi, Mina, and Sotty7.-
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Oh, happy days.
Benmage, when I saw yet more of your attack and tunneling and cheerleading for votes on us the way you did to Percy in Zachtown in the Mountains, I'll admit my blood pressure rose, and I literally wanted to inflict physical violence on you. It was hard to even concentrate on this game because wall after wall of nitpicking over every throwaway sentence we made long after we'd started picking up our play was demoralizing (although having three players to fight arguments off at once helps a lot).
So now I don't even have to answer it, because we're not getting lynched today. We're DEFINITELY not getting lynched today.
Someone else is.
So guys. I will spend tonight on a monster case. Unfortunately, I'll only have time for one subject:
1) The player with whom I have reservations the size of a small continent and whose every post raises yet another alarm bell, simply because a couple of the arguments he's pushing are so ridiculous that I'm shocked he could genuinely believe them as town, but who wouldn't be my top choice for a lynch this early on.
2) The player who has virtually claimed scum.
Which would you prefer? I'm leaning toward 2, but the drama of leaving you hanging and doing 1 first is tempting.
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